As men we can put forward our opinions, but when it comes down to it, once both of you have had that discussion, and the woman still wants to terminate, then as men, we have to respect that, we can't just keep on at it until the woman changes her mind to what we want.

Fair point… and I guess it's part of being in a relationship as well, respecting each others decisions etc, but… I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't. I might be fine and happy that my/our relatively carefree life gets to go on and I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy (as I currently do, to a point!), but I may suddenly realise (as I may already be realising) that there may well be more to life and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away… I just don't know.

I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't.

For her sake, and for the sake of your relationship you need to get that sorted.

gnarman – Member

I just don't know that I'll be OK with it if she does terminate, I really don't. I might be fine and happy that my/our relatively carefree life gets to go on and I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy (as I currently do, to a point!), but I may suddenly realise (as I may already be realising) that there may well be more to life and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away… I just don't know.

Fair point – and none of can realistically expect to predict how we will react in those circumstances.. I think you'll just need to take it as it comes.

Haven't bothered to read all the other stuff as this is about as personal a decision as you both will ever be faced with.

You could be screwed which ever way it goes.

She might terminate and you'll leave her.

She might terminate then resent you later for not stopping her.

She might have the kid and resent it.

She might have the kid and resent you.

She might have the kid but something else will lead you to leave them both.

Or

She might terminate and you'll carry on as before.

She might have the kid and you'll all be happy.

(Has anyone else read "When a Monster is Born" BTW?)

My only advice would be that the order of things happening should be that you discuss the options as much as you can. Then she has to make the decision whether to terminate. Then you have to make your decision and either accept things as they are or leave. But don't let your decision eat you up.

and I'll resent her for taking the opportunity away

But she wouldn't be taking that opportunity away, there'd still be the opportunity to have kids in the future.

I can spend lots of money on bikes and whatever else takes my fancy

You have to understand that kids needn't cost you a lot of money. Let's get that straight!

Did you discuss kids previously, before getting married?

For her sake, and for the sake of your relationship you need to get that sorted.

But how can I know until it's done? Really thinking about it now, I can see the positives of not having this baby: we get to keep travelling around Europe etc, we save more money and go back to Australia with a house deposit (hopefully when the bloody pound is worth a bit more than now!), I get to keep my bikes (will have to sell a fair bit if we have a child now) and our lives stay the same pretty much. Then in a couple of years we go home in a good position & buy our first place with a decent deposit, get settled in to jobs etc and then we can try again for a child. Sounds like a plan right?

But I just feel it's wrong for us to do this… we've created a life (or the opportunity for it to exist) and I just don't feel we should take that away just so we can save more money or go travelling or whatever else… I think I'm going to feel guilty about that and it's going to taint everything afterwards?

Bloody catholic upbringing finally coming home to bite me on the arse with it's latent morals & ethics… brainwashing runs deep it seems…

We were in a similar position 16 years ago, except we were younger, early 20s.

Came down to (1) we were confident we would stay together for the forseeable future and (2) we would want kids some day, but maybe not _just_ yet. So in the end we just thought we might as well get it over and done with! Just think it might have been your last fertile sperm/egg for all you know. We managed fine for money despite not earning much at the time, its not as if you need to pay it all up front is it. Wouldn't change it.

So try that as an argument, but at the end of the day despite what you say if she ain't happy then its not happening.

Gnar – seriously – why would you have to sell bikes? How much do you think it'd cost?

Well… what we really want is to go home to Oz with enough for a house deposit, so around AUD$30k or so (£18k or thereabouts), this was one of our aims in coming over to the UK (along with advancing Mrs Gnar's career, which has definitely happened). By having a kid now, this means we'd go home in February next year as I'm pretty sure we'll be better having family around etc, so selling bikes makes sense to help get to this target as well as reduce the amount of stuff we need to take home!

I can't say I've noticed any financial hardship since Jnr W2K arrived!

EDIT: Just noticed you're a sponger, so my sympathy level has dropped a little. 😉

Gnar – seriously – why would you have to sell bikes? How much do you think it'd cost?

+1

In fact long term you will be buying more bikes. And parts donated to a child's bike are the perfect excuse for replacement you know.

I can't say I've noticed any financial hardship since Jnr W2K arrived!

Bet you earn more than I do though… my wage last year was £24k, Mrs G was £40k or so, which is another issue as she's the main bread winner…

Pretty much the same gnarman, but no debt other than mortgage to worry about.

You could cope without family for sure, for a while. It helps to have people round you, but I'd say if you need to stay and save up then do just that. You'll manage it.

Phew, lots of advice so far, and another female perspective if it helps. All the things she is worrying about may just be understandable fears, that with discussion/time she can deal with and rationalise. Or it may be much deeper and actually, she just doesn't want to have kids for a whole host of reasons that include but are not solely about the things you've listed. You must sit down, and talk and then talk some more about how you both really feel about stuff and why. Clearly this is going to be a real test of your relationship, but I find it interesting (no judgement involved) that you are questioning your – so far – happy relationship in the light of what she has said about this pregnancy. I would imagine that you chose to be together because you love each other and wanted to spend your lives together come what may. If that (maybe) doesn't involve kids – why would you want her, and your relationship with her any less?

Yes, ultimately, she could take a unilateral decision about what to do, but you are in this together and after 11 years of marriage you owe it to each other to talk about it as long as it takes, in order to come a decision that you both understand, even if it's one that you don't necessarily share. Warm wishes to you both in working through this.

+1. Her fears may be making her think that a kid would be a problem. Maybe with a bit more positivity from somewhere it'd be different.

Or to put it another way – look on the bright side.

Well… what we really want is to go home to Oz with enough for a house deposit, so around AUD$30k or so (£18k or thereabouts), this was one of our aims in coming over to the UK (along with advancing Mrs Gnar's career, which has definitely happened).

Money is a smokescreen. Creating a perfect financial environment for a child is a real middle class obsession, and a very bad idea because it's never ending.

The decision is this:

1. You have the baby. You both then have to deal with all that comes with this.

2. Your wife terminates the pregnancy. You stay with her and may or may not have a child in the future.

3. You leave. You now need to find a partner to have a child with, and that's less easy when everyone's coupled up in their 30s.

Option 1 is (subject to a succesful pregnancy) the most certain. It's up to the pair of you to then make it work.

Options 2 and 3 are less certain. There is no guarantee that you and your wife will conceive again, whether because she doesn't want to or you can't – don't assume lightning will strike twice) and there is no guarantee that you would meet anyone new with whom to have a child. Remember also that further delay makes you an older parent.

Time is not on your side – you have only a few weeks' window for the termination. You have only a small number of years (don't believe all that getting pregnant in your late 30s is easy nonsense – female fertility drops sharply at 30, and off a cliff from 35).

I'd say keep it and live with the decision you both made. Sure, it's changed your plans, but so what – life isn't all abiut living to a single plan.

Gnar – what a difficult and emotional time you must both be having. I can tell you that blokes do grieve for babies they want and then lose – I have been there. As I see it, you made the baby together, so you need to decide what to do together. I do believe that a life is hanging in the balance as you decide. It sounds like you and your wife definitely need some unbiased, professional counselling to help you make your choice. I hope it's a good one.

Or she may just not want kids, and is being forced to try and justify that decision.

I think the choice to have children or not can't always be justified with rational reasons.

In the OP's situation I'd be wary of backing her into a corner by trying to overcome all the reasons she's given.

-> ebygomm – the trouble they have isn't that they don't want kids, its that they unexpectedly have one on the way. The choice is not whether to have kids or not, but whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. The two are completely different questions.

The choice is not whether to have kids or not, but whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. The two are completely different questions.

Maybe to you, but not everyone feels like that. In a perfect world it might be different, but you can't separate the decision to terminate from the decision to have a child

I disagree – tell me the moral basis for you to have rights over her body?

Whilst the body is hers, the object inside her is at most 50% hers. Therein lies the question of morals

We weren't put here for anything

Ethically / morally, that's as maybe, but biologically and naturally, the sole purpose we serve is to reproduce

It's all very well talking about shared responsibility and 50% this 50% that but at the end of the day, there is no middle ground. It's an either or situation.

Yes, you can talk and try and reach a decision together but there isn't any choice that is a compromise, so ultimately it has to be one persons decision. There is nothing morally wrong about that.

…and the consequences in a marriage of taking a decision like that as an individual, may be that it isn't just the pregnancy that is terminated…

Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that a decision has to be made even if both people aren't happy with that decision. It doesn't make that decision morally wrong.

I'm a dad of three.

My advice; stop with all the agonising, stop with all the attempts to rationalise the situation, go and give her a kiss and tell her you will love her whatever she wants to do…

Whatever happens, it's just life doing what life does.

I'd love to see this thread linked to mumsnet etc.

Whilst the body is hers, the object inside her is at most 50% hers. Therein lies the question of morals

Dunno man. What does one single sperm weigh? Not a lot compared to a foetus.

I'm with TJ on this one. It's not the OP's place to be putting any pressure on her to make a decision one way or the other.

unexpectedly expecting

personal question i know…. and i havent read all of the above….

it really fascinates me when people say it was 'unexpected'…..

A – were you banging away with no contraception?

B – using contraception?

Im not trying to be pedantic, im just interested….

Gnarman, does your wife have any female friends who have children she cud talk to? I'm sure if she speaks to other mums she may find that they felt exactly the same for a while. I don't have kids yet but can imagine how scary it must be but there aren't many people out there who regret it. Whatever happens I'm afraid one or both of you will come out bruised and battered. It wud be a good idea to speak to a counsellor now to help u get throughit and to talk properly about your feelings. As some have said u are still young so if u change your minds u cud still have children in the future. At the end of the day u need to prepare yourself for a rough time but you married for better for worse. Hope you get the outcome you want though, I always feel sorry for guys in this situation because people always forget your feelings. Let's us know what happens.

I've got three children. They are hard work, and cost money – quite a lot (I notice that all those saying they cost nothing have children at most a couple of months old). But I don't really think that should come into it – as someone said, it's just life doing what it does. You will make it work.

Having said that, I think the best advice came from crikey –

go and give her a kiss and tell her you will love her whatever she wants to do…

You've been together for 11 years for a reason, and that hasn't changed, and shouldn't change whatever she decides.

Three older kids is very obviously going to cost you money. I am of course referring to immediate outlay when you have a baby/little one, which is what would impact the OP.

My advice on this is that she needs to talk to some one such as her midwife for impartial advice on both sides as there are consequences to having a termination. My wife tells me that she feels a comection to the baby very early on. If you talk to someone who has lost a baby early on then they have normaly had to have counselling for the loss. That said if she really doesn't want to go through with it then you need to be there for her.

im now typing this one handed with a baby in other arm that has been screaming colicy wails for the last 2 hours and wont settle. my ear drums are exploding and my head banging but i stand by my earlier advice, this is the most personal and amazing experience of my entire life
you both need 110% commitment 110% of the time though so if that doesnt exist…..

gnarman, you are in a tricky no win situation and the relationship is probably over, only one of you will be happy whatever the outcome is, she will be happy without baby and you wont be, if she keep the baby then she will be unhappy while you are pleased with it, it wouldnt be fair on the baby to have single parents.

Sorry to be blunt, it's best the lady have the final say as it's her body and mind that have to go through this, I wish you the best and good luck.

hell must have frozen, cos for once i agree with TJ.

Its her decision – and you must support her.
a baby puts a huge strain on a relationship – and if it is a little rocky before hand, the first couple of years can break the relationship if theres resentment about the decision.

The only possible solution I could suggest is to convince her to put off an abortion until the latest possible time

I find that a horrible thought…after seeing my daughter at her 3 month scan (a still legal termination date) – she was quite clearly a person at that stage….no way should you dither to the full 24 weeks (6 months)…

[Edit] removed my further comment as it's probably too harsh / too real

..again, stop with all the middle class angst. If she would like to have a baby, support her. If not, support her.

It's really not a big deal either way, and 10 years from now you'll not be worried about 'what might have happened'.

It's life, it doesn't run in straight lines, it really doesn't care much what you think, it just happens and you don't really have much choice but to accept it.

Jesus, we'd all never bother doing anything if we analysed this much…

Hi gnarman, sorry to pitch in after sooo many comments, I guess that goes to show how serious and passionate people are about this. I'm not going to add to much, just a couple of questions:

1) Have you had the conversation in the past (before pregnancy) about what you wanted out of life and partnership? (sounds like you may have had that a bit)

2) If yes, what was the outcome of that? If no, suggest you try to have one now, without polluting with emotion of current situation (i understand this is somewhat difficult!).

I am talking here about life, not just next few years. Is the long term vision of grandkids/greatgrandkids playing in the house, screaming and playing and fighting? Or is it one of independence, security, freedom to choose one's life experiences unburdened by other necessities?

If the response is really that we want the complete fiscal and personal freedom of having no family, then that is cool. I have friends who have made that call, and as they made it together and it is both what they want they are confident, happy and delightful company who love our, and other peoples, kids.

If there is something in the future that is different to that, then you need to clarify and understand what the long term view of this is for both of you. Really understand what a misty eyed vision of the future is, both of you describe it. What will she be doing? What will you be doing? What will you be doing together?

Only by thinking about that end goal will you both reach a decision regarding the immediate situation that will ultimately benefit you both.

Whatever, you gotta keep talking man, and mostly talking with each other.

Kev