MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Just because this is what I’m spending all day dreaming about at work this week and I’ve kind of exhausted the supply of sexy steel hardtails to look at.
This is one of those things that ‘I like the idea of’ but I’m aware the reality might be quite hard/frustrating/anti-climactic etc.
I really miss having a hardtail for hacking around on. Since my other bike is a Geometron (and is a keeper) I don’t really fancy a new school, raked-out chopper. Some days I want to do hops and wheelies and live on the back wheel. Obviously I could choose from a hundred different off the shelf options, but I’ve been riding bikes all my life, so why not learn how to actually build one of the things?
Firstly, how many options are there for courses? I’m aware of Bicycle Academy and Downland Cycles.
For people who have already done it;
Where did you do it?
Did the bike you build live up to your expectations?
Did you use your skills to build any further bikes?
Should I just buy a bloody Curtis AM7 if that's what I really want?
A friend just bought a tig welder and then watched a lot of youtube videos. He progressed from knocking together a few tables, to playing around with an old dead frame, and has now built a quite convincing road single speed. Next up he is building a slacked out 29er for a friend.
I did the frame build course at Downland cycles a few , and built a 650b hardtail. I didn't really know what I was doing and just based it around an old Gary Fisher I had, so it ended up a bit of a barge. I did the course with my boy, as I thought it would be fun or him, again with him there was a lack of direction and support and he built a road bike with lugs, I wasn't watching him all the time and they persuaded him to build the bike for a 1" headset, so neither bikes have been ridden nor even painted to be honest. It was really just an exercise in sticking metal together, and LOTS of filing! Honestly just buy a frame it will work out way cheaper, unless you plan to go on and make loads.
I am frame building curious. I like the idea of it. But I do not kid myself that that the first frame I build will be perfect. If you want a Curtis AM7, definitely buy one, because it will take many attempts just to make something even passable. Maybe you can enjoy riding the Curtis whilst also learning to build your own frames.
I have looked at these and like the idea of building my own frame for fun (if not steel then carbon like bigdean).
However, I decided I'd be better off improving my welding skills before going on a course. I am lucky enough to have access to a good workshop but if I didn't I'd be looking at getting a second hand welder and having a bash with old scrap frames first (e.g. put a modern head tube in, change the drop outs or something). To be blunt, I think in a few days, you'll learn welding and basic metal work if you go in cold. You won't build a nice frame.
I was looking at the Enigma course.
Look up "Pithy Bikes" on youtube. He's in the US but has a load of videos of learning to build frames from scratch (well, after a basic TIG course) in a single garage.
I sometimes like the idea of spending a week somewhere making my own frame but that sort of money would either buy a *really* nice custom frame or a load of metalworking equipment for me to play around with.
IME the jig(s) and geometry was a bigger ball ache than the frame, I really need to do a mk2. I suppose a hard tail with straight tubes could be pretty simple(ish).
It will be expensive, but riding trails on a bike you made that doesn't fall to bits is the best.
Am now learning to weld and keep hovering on a tig welder buy button.
Thanks for all the info. I've read the full-moto blog, subscribed to the Pithy channel, watched the Bike Academy videos.
And of course my bike is forming in my head.
I know someone who is a mint tig welder I'll ask him if there's anywhere local I could get some practice.
Your in sheff no
Bit left field you not fancy a bamboo bike?
I went on Dave Yate's framebuilding course about 7 years ago, and decided to build myself a touring frame as part of it (figuring that it'd last me longer than a mtb frame, which I have a tendency to crack).
I really enjoyed it. I ended up with something that was (at the time) fairly unavailable on the market - a steel drop-bar road frame that fit me well, with disk mounts (common now, but this was 2012).
I built the bike up once it was home, and use it for all my road riding including commuting. I've probably put over 30,000 miles on it. My only sadness is it has slightly more pedal overlap than I'd have liked - I could have got around this by taking the bits (shoes/cranks/pedals) along with me.
it cost about £1200 all in for the week, ending in a painted frame (I didn't do the painting). A frame from Dave was about £900 at the time, and whilst that'd have been better made, I figured it was actually pretty good value for money. I get a lot of satisfaction from riding something I know I welded together, and I doubt I'd have been able to do it from videos (I couldn't weld/braize before the course).
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I did the one at Downland in 2010. Didn't know what I wanted so I copied an Inbred. The guy who ran the course has lots of experience building tandems.... He knew nothing about mountain bikes or 29ers and I ended up with a frame that wouldn't allow the cranks to turn because of the chainstay being in the way, and it had long chainstays and just enough room for a 2.1 tyre.... This was after I paid to have it powder coated. I still haven't ridden it!
I've been on the self taught hobby route for about the last 10 years! That was coming from an engineering apprentice and degree background so could already cut, drill, file cad etc and had definite ideas of the geo / designs I wanted to make.
I'd probably benefit from the BA brazing masterclass, but feels like a cop-out having got this far on my own (just bothering to spend the block of time practicing at home would probably have the same outcome).
In your position I'd be 100% chasing up mickmcd's offer above. Option 2 would be Bike Academy. Option 3 Dave Yates. Whatever, spend loads of prep time to make sure frame no. 1 is somewhere near what you want. You'll always want a mk2 but design / thinking / prep time is both free and priceless 🙂
Well I've got more than I bargained for out of this thread. I just wanted to kill a couple of afternoons at work! Thanks for the real life horror stories, and the successes.
Now I'm in touch with Mickmcd, (who I didn't realise has a full on manufacturing facility just up the road!) I've been drawing pictures of frames all over writing pads, I've followed the links and videos down into the wormholes.
Now, I never imagined starting a bike brand*. I just want to build a BMX for the woods because I miss the 'arsing around' style of riding. BUT, It would be pretty exciting if I created something that other people wanted to buy. Obviously that's a long way down the line, but aren't you supposed to start a business with your ultimate goal in mind?
In the near future I'd like to test ride some hardtails. Just to remember what I actually like about them. I've been riding the Geometron for about 18 months and it makes everything else feel twitchy and scary so I need some quality time with another bike.
*But if I did, I'd build the frames BEFORE I sell them to help prevent Sick!ness
Nice one - Mr Mcd has some amazing skills, equipment and experience.
As you haven't yet designed or built anything, I'd probably tone back the bike company ideas for now 🙂
For those who have done the courses - do they cover stuff like material choice and technique advantages and so on? For instance I've often wondered why Reynolds 725 is chosen over 631, even though 631 is airhardened and will actually get stronger at heated joints or why the aircraft industry rejects brazing cromoly even though bikes are fine with it (something about joint cracking) or why/when to fillet braze and when to TIG?
I’ve been drawing pictures of frames all over writing pads, I’ve followed the links and videos down into the wormholes.
In that case you'll want to take a look at www.bikecad.ca too . . .
Careful how you go, I did a course a couple of years back, built a CX frame I raced a season on, then an improved one, then an MTB, then an audax frame, a TT frame and a tandem . . .
You thought buying bikes is en expensive hobby? building them is the same PLUS the cost of metal, which can be surprisingly expensive.
My understanding (not been on any frame courses) was that 631 is 853 without the final heat treatment. You still get the air hardening at the joints, but the UTS of the tube is lower so maybe more dent / buckling prone if using very thin tubes.
725 has a UTS between 631 and 853, so a bit more dent resistant but the joints maybe aren't quite as strong.
TIG vs brazing is usually defined by what equipment you have / what you prefer to do. TIG is cleaner and quicker but harder for the novice to make quality safe joints (mickmcd will probably disagree on the last bit but he is a welding god and has a really good welder with lots of clever features). TIG also gets the best metallurgy out of joints in 853.
Dunno about the brazing issue in aircraft. I've always wondered about the opposite in motorsport where people weld T45 steel roll cages. According to the British Standard, the manganese content puts it right at the limit of what should be welded.
@mick_r - that pretty much confirms what I understood. I wondered if the courses might explain why/when the better dent resistance of 725 is a better choice than the final joint strength of 631 in the HAZ.
I read a really interesting blog post iirc, by a frame maker - which I now cant find -they decribed where they used Tig and where they used brazed on the frames didn't really explain why though...
The TIG vs braze on 853 seems to be a way to start a massive bun-fight amongst metal aficionados. I was interested by one argument that Tig uses the metal of the tube next to the joint plus filler making it impossible to repair a joint without replacing the tube. And brazing doesnt get the joint hot enough to take advantage of the hardening effect.
I also found - and now can't find - an article where someone Reynolds maybe or a bigish bike maker did destructive testing on the various types of joints and surprisingly brazing won over Tig and lugs.
I wondered if the frame building courses would help sort fact from fiction on those types of questions
I've always wanted to learn to braze properly - my Dad learned as part of his engineering degree and brazed the suspension on his mates Austin 7 ( never saw the guy again, make of that what you will). I tied a brazed repair on a car roof once and it never drove the same since.