YMMV, but for me keto works well. Yes, <25g net carbs per day.

Some performance compromise – my 15s power output is unaffected, my 1 hour ftp is unaffected but my 2 minutes power output has suffered and warm ups take much longer.
However, the improvement in mental clarity, particularly at the end of a long off-road ride (several hours) is fantastic, and well worth the slight compromises above.

However, the improvement in mental clarity, particularly at the end of a long off-road ride (several hours) is fantastic, and well worth the slight compromises above.

Do you get someone to ask you to perform mental arithmetic at the end of a ride?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLgctEe5ANM[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpaK5dkoyxY[/video]

Low-carb high-fat (LCHF) for endurance sports with professor Tim Noakes | EP#44

Been running keto for over a year. Did the South Downs way in 12 hrs with just eating a handful of macadamia nuts

cannonballcol – Member
Been running keto for over a year. Did the South Downs way in 12 hrs with just eating a handful of macadamia nuts

Wow amazeballs, what was you calorific intake before and after? What did you expend during the ride? How long did it take you to do it on another type of diet? How big are you hands?

I prefer the balanced wholefood diet, combined with correct amount of sleep and exercise. Works perfectly. No need for diet fads.

What’s interesting is the abuse the haters give. Why not accept that, even possibly as placebo, it makes some of us happy?

^ If you are happy about your diet it is just fine but don’t use pseudoscience to justify your choices. It is easy to find supporting YouTube channels for every fad.

don’t use pseudoscience to justify your choices.

What’s pseudo about it?

Reduce starchy carbs and replace with lower carb/ lower GI vegetables.

Wheat is the original processed food. We can’t eat it in it’s natural form.

Also, genetically the wheat we eat varies widely from what we started with.

There is even a strain that is immune to Glyphostate, so you can spray a whole crop with that shit and not damage your harvest.

You body can still produce glucose without a load of starch.

What’s pseudo about it?

There is a lot of mixing of I used to eat a shit diet and now I don’t eat all the crap with the new diet fixes things.
The stuff people describe as being the previous doesn’t ever sound that good.
Then the I rode 12hrs on a hand full of nuts anecdote….

What’s interesting is the abuse the haters give. Why not accept that, even possibly as placebo, it makes some of us happy?

The only thing I am unsure about is whether you can keep your username given one’s dietary proclivities.

Unless they’re chia flapjacks.

As a diabetic, This is of interest to me..

Although the NHS diabetic advise is to avoid this LCHF diet, but I fear they are stuck in the 1950’s with their approach..

I tried it (I think) on a one-week business trip when I was eating in hotels by cutting carbs completely and eating just proteins and salads. My weight stayed stable instead of shooting up as it normally does on trips but I had a weird metallic taste in my mouth all week, which must mean something chemical was going on in my body.

I’m told that ketosis is a pretty bad state to be in for maximal efforts in racing. Probably some articles out there but everything I know says sugar is good for performance.

Other than that I’m contractually obliged to be agreeable on this topic.

Teetoo if I had listened to the NHS dietician and so called diabetes specialist I would still be on Metformin. I knew more than the dietician after 10 minutes on google FFS. I just cut out sugar, harder than you think, they put the bloody stuff in everything. Reduced the refined carbs increased the veg and protein and healthy fats. I don’t know what a Keto diet is, I just developed an eating regime that could work for me and my family. I hate the word diet because that implies to me a temporary change rather than a lifestyle change.

Thread revival!

I’m giving this a go currently, couple of days in, not too bad although I can hear my body saying ‘WTF!’ every now and again. Just had a couple of field mushrooms grilled with butter and cheese on top. Yum, I think. Coffee with cream was also interesting. No massive cravings although was feeling a tad rough late afternoon yesterday.

I’m coming from a diet which was terrible for snacking on white bread/biscuits etc, so even if I don’t manage to enter the fabled full ketosis, I’m hoping that just that change will reap dividends. Currently about 4-5kg above where I want to be, nothing desperate.

Any words of encouragement/ hoots of derision welcome, of course. 😉

Guy at work does it – weight lifter- some interesting meas he has but he seems to enjoy it/coping.

Not really a realistic option for a vegan [ unless you want some weight loss] so  I have nothing to add.

Yes, I can imagine it being really hard for a vegan to manage. Unless you like exclusively avocado and macadamia nuts.

Any words of encouragement/ hoots of derision welcome, of course.

My advice would be go for it. If you’re going to go keto then stick with it for at least 2-3 weeks. People try it for a day or two then declare it to be rubbish, that’s not how it works. You’ll know when you’re in ketosis and it’s a good feeling. I found that fish (oilier the better) was really helpful for me to increase fat intake while still eating something tasty. I’m not sure if fully ketogenic living is possible long term but it’s a great reset button for your system, your palate, and to get a handle on how what you eat affects your cravings and your energy levels.

While on a fully ketogenic diet and in ketosis I found it easy to get up, do some body weight excercises, have a double espresso, then go for two hours on the bike fasted, without any kid of hunger pangs or energy slump then I’d have lunch, a go to brazilian jiujitsu and spend two hours there without any kind of slump. I often read that it’s not ideal for athletes and then of course people cite olympic level or serious athletes. I’m neither of those but I found I was able to just keep on trucking for hours. At my old club we would do an hour of hard sparring every evening. If I can try to stop 90kg guys from literally trying to strangle me unconscious for an hour without getting tired while fit young guys who run, play soccer, do crossfit are vomiting and collapsing around me I think it’s fair to say it’s ok for athletic performance.

I have been doing it since the start of the year and I really like it. I don’t have the spikes and dips I used to get when I ate carbs and my overall calorie intake is lower. I am still experimenting with it but have found getting the right mix of different types of fats really important.

I’m neither of those but I found I was able to just keep on trucking for hours.

This is what I’m looking for – the ability to maintain low-intensity effort better (like an all day XC ride) with occasional bursts of effort. The way I look at is that even if my maximum power output drops slightly, any weight loss will compensate for that a little.

Some of the less-evidenced reported benefits  – quicker recovery, perhaps an anti-inflammatory effect, would be a bonus. I imagine a lot of that would be due to generally improving your diet in terms of leafy greens etc.

Not really a realistic option for a vegan

I’ve eaten a 99% vegan diet for over 30 years now. I occasionally have something with egg in it or maybe some cheese but over the years it can’t have accounted for more than 1% of my food intake and probably a lot less. I’ve never had any weight or energy issues while being on that diet and at times have eaten loads of carbs. I have in the last year or so reduced carbs in the form of bread rice pasta etc, not really because I felt they caused me any problems but just so I could actually eat even more vegetables which is really what I enjoy eating. I’ve also upped my consumption of nuts and seeds. I still have my oats in the morning but not till I’m at work so  if I’m running in then I do it without having eaten for 12 hours. This felt a little odd for a week or two but now I don’t really notice it. I feel that this has meant that if I’m out riding for a decent time I don’t get a sudden feeling of needing to eat, everything seems more gradual. Whether or not my body is now quicker to start burning fat or not I’ve no idea. Like so many of these things just making a change in your life has a huge psychological effect. In my job I’ve sat through hundreds of meetings with the results from clinical trials. Not once in any of those meetings have I seen data where no one on the placebo arm of the trial reported improvements.

I guess my own take on everything I’ve seen and read is that actually we can live very well on any number of diets the common feature of all of them being as little highly processed food and refined sugars as possible and usually plenty of vegetables – even if that’s just lower cardb ones.

I’ve been pondering this for a few weeks now, want to give it a try but Im unsure where to start.  I thinking of getting the Tim Noakes book and just use it to plan a weekly diet from, would this work or is there a better source to compile what i need to be eating?

This is what I’m looking for – the ability to maintain low-intensity effort better (like an all day XC ride) with occasional bursts of effort. The way I look at is that even if my maximum power output drops slightly, any weight loss will compensate for that a little.

Well that was certainly my experience. Trying to guage how x amount of carbs will effect your performance, or how much to eat to do x is tricky. How long will this energy gel last me?. Now I generally just eat a low carb style diet (occasionally in ketosis) I know I still cycle for 3 hours without a severe bonk, and if I’m out and someone offers me a gel or something sugary I’ll generally avoid it because the trough after the peak is much worse than the level I am at. If you’re not on that blood sugar yo-yo it’s much easier to estimate your energy levels.

Some of the less-evidenced reported benefits – quicker recovery, perhaps an anti-inflammatory effect, would be a bonus. I imagine a lot of that would be due to generally improving your diet in terms of leafy greens etc.

Removing the water is probably the biggest anti inflamatory effect I’d guess. Quicker recovery, couldn’t say. Probably just down to less erratic energy delivery, increased testosterone and feeling better generally.

I thinking of getting the Tim Noakes book and just use it to plan a weekly diet from, would this work or is there a better source to compile what i need to be eating?

There’s a world of information online.

There are any number of books/sites out there with recipes etc. Must admit I just took a list of suitable/unsuitable foodstuffs and worked off that with the aim being <25g of net carbs (to start with) and significantly upping my ‘healthy’ fats. The only additional thing is to stick a SIS tablet in the occasional pint of water to give a bit more sodium/magnesium/potassium to kick off with. Whether that’s enough of a scientific approach I’ll find out over the next week, I guess.

Loads of great info from Abel James at fat burning man. His book the wild diet is worth a read.

Recipes

The Banting Really Red List

The Banting Green List

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/recipes/11744213/Real-Meal-Revolution-Banting-high-fat-diet.html

https://www.myketokitchen.com/keto-resources/5-best-ketogenic-diet-lchf-books/

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/01/31/high-fat-low-carb-diet-benefits.aspx

Good Calories, Bad Calories (2007)

https://therussells.crossfit.com/2016/09/26/david-katz-junk-foods-slyest-defender/comment-page-1/

https://ninateicholz.com/about/the-book/

Another update – 3 weeks in now, about the point where I should be starting to feel the benefits, or otherwise. Been pretty strict, no off days, majority of calories from fat not protein, <30g carbs a day, much of it from veg. Generally feeling pretty good now, no cravings, about 5kg lost so far. I can now get into the bib shorts which I over-optimistically bought in a sale about a year ago without my paunch pouring over the top.

I’ve had some bloody awful rides in the past few weeks, no power, feeling like shit after 20 miles. Tried to fuel with some frankly, disgusting fat/macadamia nut/cacao type things but they made me want to throw up.

Decided to work a bit harder on hydration, so I’m having a cup of drink made with vegetable bouillon pre-ride. Tastes like cup a soup, really.

Today’s ride was interesting. Deliberately held back, went down a gear or so for climbing efforts, eased off when I felt any sign of lactic or over-exertion, generally just spun up stuff rather than trying to bust a gut. After 30 miles and 3500ft of climbing I’m sitting here feeling alert without any aching or fatigue whatsoever. Could easily go another 20 I reckon. I had one stop where I had to talk a cafe owner into giving me coffee with double cream in it, had a couple of chorizo links and a handful of walnuts.

It’s not for everyone – I reckon I can go a bit harder (estimated watts average was about 20 down) but I don’t think the body will recover from repeated hard efforts in the same way it does on carbs. Really good for long days spinning and covering mileage, but probably not for XC racers or Stravaaa addicts.

https://www.adventuresportsnetwork.com/sport/paddle-sports/sami-inkinen-to-row-ocean-with-fat-for-fuel/

Low carb affects people differently. We vary genetically and some people are better predisposed to burning fat. I can manage ok on low GI and low carb but I still need some. And my recovery is slower and I lose top end power. But being heavy (85kg) I need quite a bit of power to get up the steep climbs, or I have to twiddle very slowly. Which I don’t enjoy.

So for me, it’s great for a base training phase, but no good for speed. But it makes base training waaay more effective.

I was coming to that conclusion – can’t see me staying on it full-time, but using it periodically for a month or so for a reset, or with just a bit of carbs before and during rides.

LCHF/paleo (although I hate the name “paleo” diet) works for me, but I find it really hard work and rather expensive, that is hard work actually creating varied and interesting meals. Those are the factors that break me after a few weeks, not any particular cravings.

I tried keto, and it really didn’t work for me, but I might of been at the “faddy” end of the spectrum, with bullet proof coffee etc

The thing is I want to make most of my meals in 10 mins or so, I don’t have the time or inclination to be spending an hour or so a day preparing food, and I don’t want to bulk make something and eat the same meal for a week, every week.It is easy to achieve what I want with a more traditional healthy diet (ie I eat very little processed food if any most weeks). But I know that when following paleo principles it does make me feel better, it is just  too expensive and time consuming.

Also with the LCHF/paleo/keto diets there is some very sound advice, but also some almost religious dogma and zeal with the practitioners, you have to apply a healthy dose of critical thinking with much of the advice given and find  a balanced path through it.

or with just a bit of carbs before and during rides

A certain STWer suggested that it is a good idea to stay fasted before rides and during the first 45 minutes, and only then take on carbs.  This is supposed to get your fat burning pathways going – if you take carbs before rides you release insulin, which inhibits fat burning, which is what you don’t want.  It works well for me on steady rides of up to about 4 hours.  I take energy drink with me on rides but I find I hardly drink any of it even after the 45 mins is up, and I can ride easily up to a certain threshold.  However if I am going longer then I find I get tired and crampy and if on a super long ride I need to stuff loads of carbs down me to get rid of the crampy feeling.  Although at this point caffeine often works really well – preferably a caffeinated gel.

If, however I plan an intense ride but I’ve been eating low carb then I’ll eat carbs before to make some glycogen available, and then drink plenty of carbs from the off – this helps me get ride at a proper high intensity that I woudln’t otherwise be able to do.

And I always have a little carbs afterwards.  But I make it just maltodextrin or some recovery drink.  Anything too yummy and it sets off cravings.

Finally, refeed days seem to work really well for me.  I stopped doing them cos I thought it was just an indulgence, and I struggled to lose the 2kg or so I’d gained since the summer.  But a proper carb binge, like the carb version of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas seems really to help and I’ve dropped a kg easily.

Just been away for three days with work.  Breakfasts are easy in hotels, then I’ve had some pulsey soup for lunch.  Then dinners were Nandos (chicken and roasted veg), a steakhouse (steak, sweet pots and peas) and I’ve just finished my dinner at Barburrito (naked burrito with no rice, two kinds of beans, spicy meat, onions and peppers and hot salsa).  Bloody delicious.

Interesting. I’ll keep going for now and experiment with some strategies if spring/summer ever bloody turns up.

Yup, glad this has raised its head again.

Going to give it a proper go, as my Diabetes is turning me inside out of late.

You’ll have to change your username. 🙂

Teetosugars, look at the Low Carb program and forum at diabetes.co.uk . Hordes of mainly type two diabetics trying and largely succeeding with a low carb approach – often not as extreme as here – they start by saying around 100gm of carbs a day I think. I’ve tried over the last few weeks seriously for the first time and my blood sugars are way better. Also, if you can afford it get a Frestlye Libre constant glucose monitor. Being able to have a constant view of your glucose ups and downs is highly insightful in your daily rhythms, what triggers a glucose spike and what doesn’t etc.

Disclaimer – I’m a type 2 diabetic of 20+ years standing who went out of control a couple of years ago and only now starting to get back under control again.

Good luck