I am no Lance defender just trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion.

How did lance intimidate say someone like Frank Schleck ?

You typed Franck Schleck, probably should have typed Simeoni, y’know the one that retired with his face covered in his own tears and the spit of the rest of the peleton.

No I know what I typed, the treatment dished out to Simeoni was despicable and indefensible. Armstrong led that and should be ashamed of his actions.

People were cheating before Armstrong and they have been cheating since he left.

Additionally to what Junkyard has mentioned.

‘According to Tylers book (make of this what you will) The 2005 French national doping testing labs retrospective study of the 1999 tour Lance tested positive from samples for Stages 1,9,10,12, and 14.

These are the positives Lance claimed to be tampered with. Countered by Dr Micheal Ashenden stating that tampering would be beyond astronomical.

Of the other 81 samples from the rest of the peleton 7 tested positive 8.6%’

The Festina affair was probably Grand Tour cyclings best (albeit perhaps slim?) chance for going clean. Lance ensured(arguably with others) that to win, you had to dope.

The problem is his clean results are average [ for a pro and he did not even complete a TdF before winning it*]

In his defence, he was World Road Race Champion when he was 21 (1993). That was before cancer but given the history and revelations, he was almost certainly on steroids/testosterone then as well.

After cancer, he’d lost a huge amount of weight so that helped him become a grand tour contender. He’d finished high up in the Vuelta before he won the Tour. Yes, doped obviously but the example still stands.

You don’t win the World Championships by being average.

However arguments about “he was the best doper, they were all on it” don’t wash because people react differently to drugs – what gives one rider a 10% boost might only give a 2% boost to another rider so it’s still not a level playing field by any means.

For accuracy I am not saying he was utterly rubbish just that his Grand tour results were not good
TBH there was another thread on this and One day racers /stage winners dont tend to convert to GC winners with his record – imagine cav for Gilbert or Cancellera winning the TdF.
He was a very good one day rider but his Tours were poor. We then argued about training methods etc.

I dont think you can quote a doping result to show how good he was without dope

My view is we cannot know for sure but he did not show form that he would dominate the tour like he did
Here is against the big Mig pre doping in a TT during a tour[94] for example as to how much he improved.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY[/video]

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-would-a-clean-lance-have-been-like

Was Miguel Indurain clean? Not wanting to cause an argument but just wondering if there were any rumours about him?

Most hardened (cynical) fans regard Big Mig as dodgy….EPO taking hold of the peloton seemingly overlapped with the latter of his tour wins. Lemond say that all of a sudden the peloton was going along at warp speed in 1995….

Indurain got discussed as well – he was found guilty of using an inhaler – as for the rest there are no actual rumours about him but , given the period, we would have to say who knows

It is clear Indurain was a bit of freak physiologically with his low heart rate and huge VO2- I would be more inclined to think he could have done it clean than LA – I m not saying Indurain was not clean just that most of cycling was tainted.

he’d lost a huge amount of weight

This was another myth that was perpetuated, his starting weights were practically the same.

Indurain got caught using salbutamol although at the time I don’t think it was actually illegal in the strictest definition of the word.

The problem here is that the few cyclists out there with no doping history or record are now under suspicion as well. How can he have won clean if everyone else was doped? Lemond, Indurain, Cippolini.

??

Hence why this goes far deeper than just LA, this is the whole sport from domestic pros right up through World Tour to the UCI itself.

So what are we going to get tomorrow? Verbruggen resigns and UCI accept the USADA report? Does anyone think the Lance will eventually admit to it for it the sake of the book and film rights down the line:)

one more bump 🙄

and again

Good God, even Phil Liggett has accepted it!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/phil-liggett-i-had-no-reason-not-to-believe-lance-8219480.html

Although he still seems to be using the “well they were all on it” argument.

Not only did Lance not finish the TdF before his first win, he was effectively considered a makeweight, not good in the mountains, not good at time trials so effectively a windbreak to keep your important riders fresh on the flat stages rather than a super domestique who could help make a GC victory happen (see Froome for this).

There was nothing, pre-cancer, to suggest he was going to be anything other than a domestique with the occasional one-day or short stage-race win.

He was pretty highly rated as a stage hunter in the TdF and as a one day rider wasn’t he? He was world champion in 1991.

and the other riders who have converted from one day races to grand tour winners with a record of not completing them is ???

I dont think anyone is saying he was rubbish just that his pre drugs record is not stellar in comparison to his post drug record- particularly in relation to grand tours]. It gave no indication of what was to come and it is a large leap to assume he could have done it without drugs and we should not assume he would have. However we will never know for sure but I am not convinced.

I was posting in response to atlaz making out that he was a no hoper pre cancer-he was still a heavyweight of the peloton. As of tomorrow I’d guess that his palmares pre cancer will look pretty rosy compared to his post cancer one 🙂

they will but I agree with Atlaz. His results were Good for one day /a stage win and very mleh for a grand tour- not unlike Millar is , to complete the circle

You are aware that he was a stage winner in the TdF pre cancer and not just the gifted win either. I’m not defending him (I’m a bonafide hater) I just think you may be slightly under estimating his perceived value pre cancer…,he was on huge money at Motorola and Cofidis. Oh and how about Tommy V for one dayer who can’t climb to fighting for the win and winning the polka dot jersey at the tour?! I’d be amazed if he’s done that clean given how dodgy his team are.

I mentioned tour wins above so yes I know but have you seen the vid of mig destroying him above?
What about his TT,mountain and GT stamina transformation I cannot think of another.

As for Tommy that would be the 10 day wearing Mallot Jaune Rider on his fist tour [finihing 18 th]we are discussing? The one who has still not won a Grand Tour?

As i said I cannot think of anyone else who has done the transformation LA did

Either way we will never know but his pre drug record is not good enough we could say he definitely would have. Its my view it is not even good enough to shows signs he could have.

I agree wasn’t a realistic GT contender couldn’t cut it in the mountains etc. It was just his being portrayed as being useless by Atlaz that I thought was wide of the mark. He was reasonable as a TTer pre cancer too-sixth in Atlanta in 96 for instance. Oh and I notice that I’ve claimed 91 for the worlds above-it was 93.

As i said I cannot think of anyone else who has done the transformation LA did

I gave you a whole list on the last thread on this.

The best example probaby being big Mig himself, who did about 10 tours without even troubling the top 100…

Nah Mig was in the top 20 a few times before he won….he would probably have been on the podium the year before his first win if he hadn’t have waited for his team leader.

I gave you a whole list on the last thread on this.

You didnt but it seemed pointless to debate a list of riders as the point is nothing in his early career* when he did not do drugs indicated he would win 7 TdF or even compete for the GC. If people want to take this as proof that without drugs he would have been the best then that is their choice but i dont find it compelling.

* big mig was always a superb TT and lost 10 kg from his early years to be able to defend in the Mountains. He was also a super domestique for Delgado [ winner in 88 iirc who failed a drug test for a masking agent. He got 45 th,17th and 10th [ lost time protecting delgado or he would have been higher] 1988-90. This is probably challenging the top 100 and not bad if you are not the team leader. A slightly better record than not finishing a tour before drugs and winning 7 in a row after.
The are not equivalent and neither were the others on your list

I dont think anyone is saying he was rubbish just that his pre drugs record is not stellar in comparison to his post drug record

It doesn’t appear there was a pre-drugs phase. Given the list he reeled off in the hospital when was diagnosed with cancer his entire career is tainted, not just his grand tour wins.

Bjarne Riis has to be the biggest cheat though doesn’t he? Haemotacrit of over 60 and going from an average journey man to TdF winner….obviously he only got the one win, but I reckon he improved more than lala.

Lance was far from an also ran, he was very young in the early 90’s and the grand tours really need more that youthfull enthusiasm to win.

It takes a lot o win any tour one of he keys is a top team, and lance was always in the best team, with the most money and best other riders. Look at wiggo this year.

Lance lost weight after the cancer and probably trained harder than anyone else.

Yet again another pointless what if argument.

Isn’t the weight loss thing a myth? As for ‘trained harder’ lol!

Lance was far from an also ran, he was very young in the early 90’s and the grand tours really need more that youthfull enthusiasm to win.

Like finishing them as the starting point
You missed the drug taking part whilst explaining his transformation 😉

It’s fairly moot trying to work out if Armstrong would have been any good if cycling was clean, it’s impossible to know.

However, it’s ridiculous to claim being the best cheat was some sort of honour. Being the best cheat in a sport full of cheats is like being the biggest ****head at a party full of ****heads.

He may have been the best without the drugs and only taking them to keep up, he may have been the best suited to the drugs or he may have just taken more drugs than anyone else, who knows? But what is for sure is that he was the biggest ****head at the party.

However, it’s ridiculous to claim being the best cheat was some sort of honour. Being the best cheat in a sport full of cheats is like being the biggest ****head at a party full of ****heads.

+1 well said

Isn’t the weight loss thing a myth? As for ‘trained harder’ lol!

True, think it was one of the interviews with Ashenden where he delved into it a bit and declared it just didn’t happen.

MrSmith – Member
MrSmith – Member
MrSmith – Member
MrSmith – Member
Hora so have you had enough time to ponder my question?
so do you still think he’s innocent and didn’t dope?
just wonderin like.
POSTED 22 HOURS AGO #
Well?
POSTED 19 HOURS AGO #
Well?

POSTED 2 DAYS AGO #

Well?

POSTED 2 DAYS AGO #

Well?

Lance actually finished in 36th place in his 3rd tour (1995). He didn’t complete it the following year, but was diagnosed with cancer shortly afterwards.

Indurain took 5 tours to achieve a result better than 36th.

I’m not really defending Lance here, just disagreeing with your point. I don’t think it’s really possible to make a judgement of what “might have been” based on his early career results. In fact, I think it’s fairly probable that he was doping before the cancer too, so there’s really no basis for before/after or with/without doping.

Oh, and I’ve just spotted there was a genuine typo in my previous post, meant to say troubling the top 10, not 100! This is not an Edinburgh defense…

This is not an Edinburgh defense…

Brilliant, which of you had time to kill then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Defense

by a mainly tandem riding individual

Brilliant, which of you had time to kill then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Defense

😆
I miss TJ… I wish I’d thought of the Wiki entry though!

Isn’t the weight loss thing a myth? As for ‘trained harder’ lol!

Oh that’s right I forgot, he was an unfit fatty and after 1 vile of epo he won his first tour. You have to laugh at how well informed folk are on here, i mean here we have Tom who actually helped weigh lance on a weekly basis, and he also trained with lance since he had his cancer.

You must have some great stories Tom, tell us some more.