Labour Party problems

Israeli politics in often very racist.  I have had to cut off contact with two jewish friends of mine as I could no longer stomach their racism.

The definitions / examples from IHRA are clearly intended to stifle any critism of Israel.  I wouldn’t sign up to that.

If absolutely must bring the Nazis into every criticism of Israel then you are an anti-Semite

It is hard not to separate the state of Israel from the holocaust and it is also hard to separate the actions of the Israeli state from the horrors of the holocaust is it not. We should learn from history and try to not make the same mistakes shouldnt we? Some of the actions of tge Isrealis are not doubt driven by fear of what came before and could come again and to ignore that is dangerous imo.

@ tjagain – so regarding IHRA do you believe that the 45 countries, the Permanent International Partners organizations including the UN, the EU and all the different organisations, groups and survivors involved have all got it wrong and you are right? Or are you confusing anti semitism with anti zionism?

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>williamnot
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good job I don’t answer to you then Kimbers. But there are enough examples of this on the thread already.

If absolutely must bring the Nazis into every criticism of Israel then you are an anti-Semite

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OK i can agree with that , though  is this done routinely within labour ?

I just wanted to see some examples of the behaviour that led you to quit the party

 involved have all got it wrong and you are right?

Or people simply gave up the will to disagree with it?

I have problems with that definition as it gives special protection that other groups do not have. then again it also sounds a lot worse to list the things Israel is doing without using the N word so it goes both ways.

You know, ethnic cleansing, creation of ghettos, summary executions of opponents, collective punishment of innocents, that sort of thing.

The examples cited have been perpetrated by pretty much every European nation, why use the Nazis as the example? Well, some (but not all), people do so in order to draw a comparison between the Jewish people and the Nazis in order to either excuse the actions of the Nazis during WW2 or to paint Jewish people in a bad light. Given it is really easy to criticise Israel without mentioning the Nazis, I don’t see the problem:

Israel has, on many occasions blown up the houses of the families of suicide bombers and other Palestinian terrorists. Collective punishments are a war crime under the 1949 Geneva conventions. Israel is a signatory to the conventions. I am not a lawyer, but it looks to me that the state of Israel is guilty of a war crime, just like, for instance, the British (also a signatory), during the Mau Mau Emergency in the fifties.

piha.

I certainly would not sign up to something that equates anti isreal ( or anti zionist) with anti semitism.  so yes I think it is wrong.  Personal view.

No I am not confusing the different terms.  I have been involved with fight predjudice all my life.

Isreal is guilty of numerous war rimes and is in violation of multiple UN resolutions IIRC

Its not just blowing up suicide bombers houses.  Its destroying all civil infrastructure used by Palestinians deliberately and also cutting food imports to a level whereby malnutrition is inevitable.

@ Mike – then shouldn’t we extend that definition to other groups rather than water it down as Labour appear to be doing?

have all got it wrong and you are right?

Well its worth noting that the person who originally came up with those examples isnt too keen on how they are used,.

Its not just the Labour party, its also the PSOE in Spain, and the Democrats in the US, all sharing a similar situation.

In my opinion:

1. Conservative parties shifted very much to the center, forcing leftist parties into more extreme political views so that they are differentiated.

2. 35% of Labour voted for Brexit, voters which Labour may be too scared to alienate. Also, wasn’t Corbyn a bit of an eurosceptic?

3.Middle-class and upper-class liberal message does not mix well with the working class “fight for our rights” message, add a little bit of pandering to minorities and you get a very very strange mix.

However its not like the other side is doing much better in terms of leadership, Conservative have to reconcilate within the party the fact that their money making machine (London), may take a huge hit after Brexit, however this is what 60% of their voter base wanted. The only thing going for them, is that they are predictable-other than in Brexit.

Why should we if it’s a valid comparison of what is going on?

If it was any other nation out there we would see UN peace keepers and and resolutions that would be enforced.

If those claiming anti Semitic language would like to join in and help stop some of the crimes being committed we would have a positive step forward rather than arguing while people are actually dying

Or are you confusing anti semitism with anti zionism?

many in the jewish community would have you believe they are one and the same

but it looks to me that the state of Israel is guilty of a war crime, just like, for instance, the British (also a signatory), during the Mau Mau Emergency in the fifties.

So is your point that the Israelis don’t mind being accused of war crimes as long as it’s not nazi war crimes? That would seem a bit silly to me. If you’re a war cirminal, you don’t get to choose the nature of the criticism against you.

He then asks those at the meeting to raise their hands if they had witnessed anti-Semitism in the Labour party – and said he was “amazed” when some said they had.

Awkward. 🙂

For people who spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet I can’t believe you find it so difficult to find evidence.  Labour against Antisemitism has reported 1,200 members for disciplinary proceedings for antisemitism and have a backlog of a further 1,000 cases that they are working on.  @GnasherJew details on Twitter details 64 cases of Labour officials making antisemitic comments.

As for the IHRA it merely says the describing the Israel’s formation as a racist endeavour is antisemitic and comparing Israeli actions to the Nazis, who after all murdered 6 million of their kin, as antsemitic.  This does not in anyway preclude criticism of Israel or its policies, we are after all blessed with  a language with one of the biggest vocabularies in the world so there are plenty of other ways to do it.

The fundamental problem is Corbyn is dim and not intellectually agile enough to realise that many of those he has shared platforms with for years and years are anti semitic and he takes an criticism of them as a personal attack as he is thin skinned as well.  McDonnell is much smarter and robust.

For people who spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet I can’t believe you find it so difficult to find it so difficult to find evidence.  Labour against Antisemitism has reported 1,200 members for disciplinary proceedings for antisemitism and have a backlog of a further 1,000 cases that they are working on.  @GnasherJew details on Twitter details 64 cases of Labour officials making antisemitic comments.

I asked for impartial and independently verified comments sorry, the number reported tells us just that, doesn’t tell us what they said etc. The twitter feed again is one side of it.

The fundamental problem is Corbyn is dim and not intellectually agile enough to realise that many of those he has shared platforms with for years and years are anti semitic and he takes an criticism of them as a personal attack as he is thin skinned as well.

He has got himself into a corner on it, but it’s also being blown way out of proportion.

I assume you also have the list of comments/statements that are anti Islamic?

So is your point that the Israelis don’t mind being accused of war crimes as long as it’s not nazi war crimes?

No, thats not my point at all.

I’m saying that sometimes anti-Semites compare Israel’s actions to the Nazis in order the denigrate the Jewish people and minimize the crimes committed by the Nazis.

I think the Israeli state, like many others, including the one I am a citizen of, commits crimes, we can and should be vocal about that without exception.

As for the IHRA it merely says the describing the Israel’s formation as a racist endeavour is antisemitic and comparing Israeli actions to the Nazis, who after all murdered 6 million of their kin, as antsemitic

Anti–Semitism. The belief or behavior hostile toward Jews just because they are Jewish

If I compare Israel’s action to the Nazi’s (and clearly some of the actions are comparable) that does not mean I am being hostile to Jews, I am being hostile to the Israeli government just as when I am hostile toward teh UK government does not mean I am being hostile to the people that live in the country (from many races)

Having said that, I wouldn’t stick to my guns about it as it is pedantry that would not help my cause against a media that will use anything they can to try and cause damage.

I’m saying that sometimes anti-Semites compare Israel’s actions to the Nazis in order the denigrate the Jewish people and minimize the crimes committed by the Nazis.

and sometimes people don’t have that intent at all, bit bad to start branding them all as Anti Semites isn’t it.

Having said that, I wouldn’t stick to my guns about it as it is pedantry that would not help my cause against a media that will use anything they can to try and cause damage.

this!

From the IHRA definition ; Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

It surprises me that some in the labour party can’t understand how doing this is an attempt to make the crimes committed by the Nazis some how less bad than they actually were. It is a ‘yes the Nazis were bad but look the Jews are bad as well’ type argument.

You do realise that this is in the Labour code of conduct, right?

I guess not – which illustrates the problem. The press present a uniform view of the situation which is at variance with the facts, and people who don’t have time to check the background accept it as truth. How can Corbyn or anyone else respond in this situation?

In fact ninfan has it right (there, I said it) – Trump tells lies but they are effective in that they have his opponents running round in circles refuting them, meanwhile he has moved on to something else.

Why do you think the overt racist nature of many in the Tories is not the centre of press attention in the same way?

and sometimes people don’t have that intent at all, bit bad to start branding them all as Anti Semites isn’t it.

Agreed, but there is the flips side to this – clearly some people try to stifle criticism of Israel by calling anyone who does so an anti-semite, using the Nazi comparison plays right into their hands. There are alternative comparisons which work just as well.

Really?  What is a better comparison to the conditions in Gaza – imprisonment of an entire people, subject to random attacks by a well armed military and kept short of medicines and food than the Warsaw ghetto?

Those who don’t think this is a political attack on Corbyn please answer

“why is the overt racism and islamophobia in the tory party not the subject of such press attention?”  Its a far bigger issue

The Jewish Socialists’ Group expresses its serious concern at the rise of antisemitism, especially under extreme right wing governments in central and Eastern Europe, in America under Donald Trump’s Presidency and here in Britain under Theresa May’s premiership. The recent extensive survey by the highly respected Jewish Policy Research confirmed that the main repository of antisemitic views in Britain is among supporters of the Conservative Party and UKIP.

These accusations have come from the unrepresentative Board of Deputies and the unelected, self-proclaimed “Jewish Leadership Council”, two bodies dominated by supporters of the Tory Party.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/oppose-antisemitism-and-malicious-accusations-by-supporters-of-the-tory-par

As Helen Lewis says today in that Tory rag the New Statesman

“There is nothing left to say on Labour’s anti-Semitism row. If you don’t think there is a problem by this point, then surely nothing can change your mind. In fact, you are the problem.”

Anyway I will leave you to your little bubble which is frankly a cesspit of bigotry, but hey, we don’t link to the Daily Mail.

Does that mean it’s time to move on to the Tory party then? Be good for them to take a long hard look at their various Anti problems really.

So mefty – no answer to the questions I raised?  No comment on the piece quoted?  Just resort to name calling?

“why is the overt racism and islamophobia in the tory party not the subject of such press attention?”  Its a far bigger issue

As I pointed out earlier, it was in the press for a day a few months ago but then quickly forgotten about.  Maybe May did a deal with Dacre to stop doing it.

Imagine an alternative world when all the papers were anti tory – the amount of stories they could run about how the government is screwing the poor, disadvantaged etc,. yet doing a, b and c for the wealthy

They would never need to reach for the made up terrorist sympathiser shit.

I can’t see this thread going off the rails at all…

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/28/boris-johnson-urged-to-apologise-for-attending-racist-campaign-launch

https://www.indy100.com/article/10-quotes-by-boris-johnson-that-are-even-more-terrifying-now-hes-foreign-secretary–WyYV966nSZ

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anne-marie-morris-tory-mp-n-word-woodpile-party-whip-restored-conservative-newton-abbot-a8106101.html

https://news.sky.com/story/appalling-cynicism-tories-control-council-by-reinstating-racist-woman-11359289

But of course there is no problem there

<p class=”story-body__introduction”>Theresa May should publicly acknowledge that Islamophobia is a problem in the Conservative Party, former party chairman Baroness Warsi has said.</p>
Parts of the party had been “in denial” about the issue and a “clear statement” was needed about what was to be done to tackle it, she told the BBC.

The Muslim Council of Britain has urged the Tories to launch an independent inquiry into alleged Islamophobia.

A Tory spokesman said it took all incidents of Islamophobia seriously.

The Muslim Council of Britain has repeatedly demanded an investigation, and says there are now “more than weekly incidents” involving Tory candidates and representatives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092

Racism and islamophobia is far more of an issue in the tory party than antisemitism is in labour.  Indeed antisemitism in the tory party is worse than in the labour party

 Racism and islamophobia is far more of an issue in the tory party than antisemitism is in labour.  Indeed antisemitism in the tory party is worse than in the labour party

You might as well add misogyny while your at it.

I think a thing that helps to keep it in context, is that when Corbyn celebrated Passover with a jewish group that the Board of Deputies doesn’t like, the president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews immediately accused that jewish group of being antisemites.

That’s not some lunatic fringe, that’s the head of the organisation that’s usually considered to be the best spokespeople for British jewry. They’re the organisation that the media always turns to for comment. And they accuse fellow jews of being antisemites, purely because it’s a convenient weapon.

And yet we’re still supposed to take it seriously when they say it about anyone else.

Antisemitism is on the rise- is the real threat the Labour party? Hardly. Part of the problem is that people see racial, ethnic and religious hatred as being somehow compartmentalised, as if an antisemite in the Labour party is different from an islamophobe in UKIP or a racist prime minister who as home secretary presided over the Windrush scandal. But of course it’s not, it’s all just different heads on the same snake but people who’re rightly horrified by one head snuggle up to another because it’s biting someone else right now.

When it comes right down to it, if it really properly kicks off and goes this way, as well it might, who are you going to run to for help? The right? Good luck with that.

Just resort to name calling?

There are a number of posters on here who reject the widely accepted IHRA definition of antisemitism because they feel the need to compare Israeli actions to the Nazis.  By that definition, that constituents antisemitism and therefore they are essentially self identifying as bigots.  In some cases this is hardly news as they have plenty of form.

Anyway I am going to toddle off for a bit as this site pollutes the mind.

tj, everyone expects the Tories to be racist, it’s a dog bites man story.

How weak mefty.  You do like calling people bigots on no evidence or even against the evidence.  Ever looked in a mirror?

The captain.  Its not really that.  Its the dominance of the tory press.