its really easy to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic. And yet so many on the left fail to do so. Wonder why?
How many is so many?
its really easy to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic. And yet so many on the left fail to do so. Wonder why?
It's also really easy to call someone an anti-Semite if they criticise Israel. Many on the right do that regularly. Wonder why?
its really easy to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic. And yet so many on the left fail to do so. Wonder why?
Examples may help here
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mikewsmith
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its really easy to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic. And yet so many on the left fail to do so. Wonder why?
Examples may help here
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This , it would be good to see actual examples, because it seems to be repeated a lot by corbyns critics, but I genuinely would like to see some evidence, partly because Im not 100% sold on Corbyn even though I agree with many of his policies
Their current strategy is anti-Semitism, which I really can’t see being taken that seriously by the majority of the country
And the strategy could backfire as being racist in someway is a good thing for a lot of voters...
Here is a good article regarding anti semitic criticism of Israel by Jill Jacobs.
Jill Jacobs is executive director T'ruah for clarity.
Note - I wouldn't like to criticise Israel publicly as it seems you'll always upset someone but I don't see Labours problems as criticism of Israel, it's more about the UKs Jewish populations perception of anti semitism within Labour and the way they deal with that.
There's sadly antisemantism in any subset of humanity I'm afraid, but I don't believe that it's any worse (and arguably better) in the Labour Party.
To my mind the semantics of antisemantism are relevant; antisemantism is the persecution of people because of their Judaism - it is not the justifiable criticism of individuals or a state, for genuine misdemeanours, who also happen to be Jewish - being pro-Palastinian (and critical of Isreali abuses) is not antisemitic (although the accusation is often made as it's immensely powerful and effective).
Anti-Semitism is another slur to throw at Corbyn but I do believe that the Israeli government and some Jewish organisations have a genuine fear of a pro-Palastinian British Government and I do wonder whether some of the coordinated attacks stem from this.
-- Edit --
Already covered, sorry - I shouldn't skim through so quickly!
Here is a good article regarding anti semitic criticism of Israel by Jill Jacobs.
It is a well written piece and lots of it makes sense, there is however one thing that would help move the world along a lot which is Israel starts to follow human rights laws and the UN, it would certainly stop a lot of the potentially misguided criticism out there.
Also jumping on people who may have got the question or criticism wrong unintentionally is counter productive.
The Labour Party is a group of folk, many of whom hold wildly different views when it comes to the middle East, its not a massive surprise that some members will offend some other members with strongly held views. That doesn't however, excuse the NEC from actually just adopting the IHRA in full, and just put the whole thing to bed.
Interestingly its also revealing how quiet the Conservative party are being about the whole thing. Which speaks volumes.
can someone explain, in laymans terms, why the Jewish communities are the focus of this hate or 'alleged' hate? I've genuinely never had it neatly explained.
Interestingly its also revealing how quiet the Conservative party are being about the whole thing
I think thats as m uc to do with them all having their trotters up in Nice at the moment, normally they jump at the opportunity!
there is however one thing that would help move the world along a lot which is Israel starts to follow human rights laws and the UN,
Jew hater!
Adopting the IHRA conflates anti israeli remarks and antisemitic.does it not? The labour party definition makes it clear that criticism of israel is not always anti semetic.
Thats why the uproar. May jews and the israeli government want any criticism of Israel to be seen as antisemetic.
Yep, that must be it Drac 😉 See also how irate some Americans get when people don't stand and salute their flag, or how a criticism of the USA is taken as a personal insult by some groups.
can someone explain, in laymans terms, why the Jewish communities are the focus of this hate or ‘alleged’ hate? I’ve genuinely never had it neatly explained.
Is that really a serious question?
Ever heard of Palestine - small place in the middle east; slowly being ethnicly cleansed by a neighbouring country...
99% is hostility to Israel, which is just 'labelled' anti-Semitism as it avoids taking responsibility for their actions. 1% is generic mistrust / hatred of another race because XYZ, which affects all races everywhere...
can someone explain, in laymans terms, why the Jewish communities are the focus of this hate or ‘alleged’ hate? I’ve genuinely never had it neatly explained.
No doubt antisemitism exists
It has multiple roots from the supposed involvement of jews in the killing of christ to the way that in pre revolutionary russia Jews were forbidden to take part in many professions and trades so many ended up in money lending as their only way to earn a living giving rise to claims of usury etc.
Add to this the suspicions many have of " the other" and the tight knit nature of the jewish diaspora and you get the breeding grounds for predjudice.
can someone explain, in laymans terms, why the Jewish communities are the focus of this hate or ‘alleged’ hate? I’ve genuinely never had it neatly explained.
Didn't do GSCE History?
Medieval times: because only Jews could lend money which meant a lot of people owed them money and people hate the people they owe money to, and have a motive to kill them on any excuse.
In the run up to WW2: Loads of places across Eastern and Western Europe had an anti-semitic tradition but the Nazi propaganda seemed to focus on how well fed and rich Jews were. (During and after WW1 when a lot of people in Europe were starving there were lots of rumours Jews were hoarding food. Cause or symptom of anti-semitism, who knows, but it would have been a powerful reason to hate. (If they thought their kids died or failed to develop normally because of malnutrition while Jewish people hogged all the food.)
Post WW2: It's Israel. Massive numbers of Jews with nowhere else to go trying to cling to a bit of land where they're no longer welcome and doing all the brutal stuff you need to do to stop being 'driven into the sea' in response to all the Brutal stuff the other side need to do to stop the presence of 'foreigners' on 'their' land becoming a fait accompli.
Is that really a serious question?
yes it was. I don't pretend to know everything. I know some of it but Jewish persecution is not my wheelhouse. Call me ignorant if you like but I've never had a compelling reason to look into it and it's never been a part of my life. See also religious hatred in Ireland/Northern Ireland- it just doesn't factor in my life. Im not saying that's right its just the way it is for me. Every day is a school day.
No doubt antisemitism exists
It has multiple roots from the supposed involvement of jews in the killing of christ to the way that in pre revolutionary russia Jews were forbidden to take part in many professions and trades so many ended up in money lending as their only way to earn a living giving rise to claims of usury etc.
Add to this the suspicions many have of ” the other” and the tight knit nature of the jewish diaspora and you get the breeding grounds for predjudice.
cheers, i liked that. I had some knowledge of it but didn't know if i was wide of the mark.
Didn’t do GSCE History?
No, i did Standard Grade history back in the motherland aka F-all. The only WW history we covered was stuff about poetry, which was lost on me at the time. Of course i was aware of Jewish persecution in the wider context of history but it occurred to me reading this tread I have genuinely never had it explained why they were explicit targets for thousands of years. Go figure.
Adopting the IHRA conflates anti israeli remarks and <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">antisemitic.does</span> it not? The labour party definition makes it clear that criticism of israel is not always anti semetic.
@ tjagain - So why is it that so many countries have managed to sign up to IHRA? If the likes of Sweden, Germany, UK, Ireland etc find that they don't have to change parts of the agreement, then why do Labour feel the agreement doesn't suit Labours needs?
The better question would be why, in 2018, are Jewish communities the focus of hate any more than any other groups. I would guess that Islamic communities have a much bigger hate problem than Jewish but they haven't come up with a definition of Islamophobia which states you can't criticize countries.
then why do Labour feel the agreement doesn’t suit Labours needs?
It doesn't suit my needs and I would not accept it either. Maybe the other countries accepted it as they wanted to avoid the hassle.
then why do Labour feel the agreement doesn’t suit Labours needs?
its a fair point, Id say its to do with Labours intense Navel-gazing on the whole issue rather than an anti-semitic plot
If UK have signed up to it can I get into trouble for saying that Israel is behaving like teh Nazis by evicting arabs & building new settlements on their land?
infact if the UK has sihgned up to it aremt labour party members bound by it already, is it law?
Maybe the other countries accepted it as they wanted to avoid the hassle.
Yet the Labour party didn't want to avoid the hassle. Strange priority during the biggest crisis the UK has faced since WW2. Couldn't they just accept the definition temporarily and criticize Israel using slightly different language until after the next general election?
Unless they want us to be distracted which, the more I think about, seems to be exactly what's happening here. Slag off Rabbis and that's the number one story all day, nobody's asking Labour any important questions today, it's all about an issue that's at worst neutral and at best very popular with their core vote.
@ Kerley - I would be genuinely interested to hear why IHRA doesn't suit your needs.
I can respect your opinion if (if it is well thought out and relevant) however, Labour present themselves as being at the vanguard of standing against racism (and rightly so) so I think it is fair for Labour to be absolutely clear on anti semitism within their organisation and that includes dealing with elements of it within the party.
If Labour agree with IHRA, would that mean you would oppose the Labour party as it doesn't fit with your needs?
Unless they want us to be distracted which, the more I think about, seems to be exactly what’s happening here
Are you seriously trying to claim this is all a Labour plot?
I've just been on the IHRA website to have a look at what all the fuss is about. There I found the following examples of anti-semitism
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
So the first seems to me an attempt to conflate issues around the Israeli state, and specifically how it was created, with racism against jews. What the hell has the debate about how Israel was created got to do with historical racism against jews?
The second an attempt to restrict criticism of Israeli policy which could clearly be compared with what the Nazis did. You know, ethnic cleansing, creation of ghettos, summary executions of opponents, collective punishment of innocents, that sort of thing. Gaza is a good example, presumably it's anti-semitic to suggest that it's comparable to the Warsaw ghetto?
Seems to me that these two examples are a clear attempt to restrict freedom of speech and the criticism of Israel, and have nothing to do with hatred of Jews as a people. So can someone please explain what all the fuss is about?
Seems to me that these two examples are a clear attempt to restrict freedom of speech and the criticism of Israel, and have nothing to do with hatred of Jews as a people. So can someone please explain what all the fuss is about?
Too many vested interests here really.
Because there are many ways to criticise Israel without comparing them to the Nazis? Which is a long running Anti Semitic trope
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Because there are many ways to criticise Israel without comparing them to the Nazis? Which is a long running Anti Semitic trope
you still havent shared examples yet
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good job I don't answer to you then Kimbers. But there are enough examples of this on the thread already.
If absolutely must bring the Nazis into every criticism of Israel then you are an anti-Semite
Because there are many ways to criticise Israel without comparing them to the Nazis?
Even if what they are doing is directly comparable in many ways?
@ dahz - At a guess its saying it is OK to say "I disagree with Israels policy of the relocation of Palestine families" but wrong to say "Israel are relocating Palestinian families in the same way the Nazis did to the European Jews". Happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge.
In which case I'd go with I'm unhappy with Israels policy of shooting unarmed civilians and medics, occupying territory, building on it and keeping a population in poverty. I'm sure somebody will be along to complain about that at some point.
Israeli politics in often very racist. I have had to cut off contact with two jewish friends of mine as I could no longer stomach their racism.
The definitions / examples from IHRA are clearly intended to stifle any critism of Israel. I wouldn't sign up to that.
If absolutely must bring the Nazis into every criticism of Israel then you are an anti-Semite
It is hard not to separate the state of Israel from the holocaust and it is also hard to separate the actions of the Israeli state from the horrors of the holocaust is it not. We should learn from history and try to not make the same mistakes shouldnt we? Some of the actions of tge Isrealis are not doubt driven by fear of what came before and could come again and to ignore that is dangerous imo.
@ tjagain - so regarding IHRA do you believe that the 45 countries, the Permanent International Partners organizations including the UN, the EU and all the different organisations, groups and survivors involved have all got it wrong and you are right? Or are you confusing anti semitism with anti zionism?
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">good job I don’t answer to you then Kimbers. But there are enough examples of this on the thread already.
If absolutely must bring the Nazis into every criticism of Israel then you are an anti-Semite
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OK i can agree with that , though is this done routinely within labour ?
I just wanted to see some examples of the behaviour that led you to quit the party
involved have all got it wrong and you are right?
Or people simply gave up the will to disagree with it?
I have problems with that definition as it gives special protection that other groups do not have. then again it also sounds a lot worse to list the things Israel is doing without using the N word so it goes both ways.
You know, ethnic cleansing, creation of ghettos, summary executions of opponents, collective punishment of innocents, that sort of thing.
The examples cited have been perpetrated by pretty much every European nation, why use the Nazis as the example? Well, some (but not all), people do so in order to draw a comparison between the Jewish people and the Nazis in order to either excuse the actions of the Nazis during WW2 or to paint Jewish people in a bad light. Given it is really easy to criticise Israel without mentioning the Nazis, I don't see the problem:
Israel has, on many occasions blown up the houses of the families of suicide bombers and other Palestinian terrorists. Collective punishments are a war crime under the 1949 Geneva conventions. Israel is a signatory to the conventions. I am not a lawyer, but it looks to me that the state of Israel is guilty of a war crime, just like, for instance, the British (also a signatory), during the Mau Mau Emergency in the fifties.
piha.
I certainly would not sign up to something that equates anti isreal ( or anti zionist) with anti semitism. so yes I think it is wrong. Personal view.
No I am not confusing the different terms. I have been involved with fight predjudice all my life.
Isreal is guilty of numerous war rimes and is in violation of multiple UN resolutions IIRC
Its not just blowing up suicide bombers houses. Its destroying all civil infrastructure used by Palestinians deliberately and also cutting food imports to a level whereby malnutrition is inevitable.
@ Mike - then shouldn't we extend that definition to other groups rather than water it down as Labour appear to be doing?
have all got it wrong and you are right?
Well its worth noting that the person who originally came up with those examples isnt too keen on how they are used,.
