So I just built a couple of HT’s (due to offers being too good to miss and having a shed of spare parts – I literally only had to buy a set of bars)

I took the bigger bike to the park (Rogate) and it jumps great then yesterday I went out with the 11yr old.

Complete disaster – he barely cleared a 10′ table and was so embarrassed we had to go somewhere with no-one watching. We found a few even smaller jumps (barely 6′) and I managed to film him.

His timing is way off … it’s like he’s pumping too early. He said he felt like he was going to get kicked.

I was riding a tiny 26″ DJ so let him play on that and it was the same.

I can’t understand it, even I was clearing the jumps easily … I (or he) had no idea he’d struggle.

Both have “longer” 50mm stems and he wanted wider bars on the DJ (no longer than his FS though)
both have heavier back wheels (A SAS on the 26 and EX511 on the 27.5) but the issue just seems to be timing.

(I have some video clips but I can’t post to social media, he’d die of embarrassment)

I managed to book us into Rogate on Sunday and if the same thing happens I think he’ll end up just not riding the HT’s.

HEre isn’t posting on Social Media mate, there’s a LOT of clever jump lads here who may be able to advise.

Rogate Sunday… where’how and me and a few may come down.

it’s like he’s pumping too early

lazy full suss jumping, preload the suspension just before a jump and use the rebound to pop.

Is there a chance you’ve maybe built things up a bit in his head? Rather than going to Rogate and him applying a bit too much pressure to himself, is there nowhere local you can build some sensible sized tables for him to work up and practise on?

christ I get excited if i hop off a curb without dying.

It’ll be poor technique meaning he can’t adapt it between bikes. I used to spend a lot of time at Windhill and Rogate on the full sus so got very lazy on my technique until I took my cheap hardtail to Windhill for a laugh with a riding buddy. By the end of the day we were both jumping better on our HT’s than we did on the big bikes. We actually went back with the big bikes a few days later and we were both massively overjumping everything as we had a much better technique. Need to do it again at some point as I’ve got lazy again!

timing is different on full sus vs a hard tail, just need some practice. get yourself down to a pump track and spend an hour or 2 getting used to the bike. From memory, rogate has slightly flatter dh jumps (rather than steep dj jumps) so you may just not be carrying the speed in thats required (little bikes get bucked a lot more on the way in so feel like you’re going quicker).

on a big bike, the rear kick of the jump is absorbed by the bike, this obviously isn’t the case on a hard tail. weight back a little further and move around the bike, you’ll get used to it.

hard tails are easier to pump, so can generally jump a bit bigger than a squashy bike – I can get over steep doubles on my dj bike that I’d have no hope of on my downhill bike. similarly, I wouldn’t want to hit a 30′ gap on my hardtail (but the big bike is fine for that sort of thing).

lazy full suss jumping, preload the suspension just before a jump and use the rebound to pop.

Yes …

HEre isn’t posting on Social Media mate, there’s a LOT of clever jump lads here who may be able to advise.

Yep but I’d need to work out how to share the video somewhere…

It’ll be poor technique meaning he can’t adapt it between bikes. I used to spend a lot of time at Windhill and Rogate on the full sus so got very lazy on my technique until I took my cheap hardtail to Windhill for a laugh with a riding buddy. By the end of the day we were both jumping better on our HT’s than we did on the big bikes. We actually went back with the big bikes a few days later and we were both massively overjumping everything as we had a much better technique. Need to do it again at some point as I’ve got lazy again!

Yep, he sends mainline to flat on the FS without seeming to make any effort and clears stupid stuff on Triple R. He’s way better than I am usually.

I took the HT on Friday and cleared everything I tried easily. I was riding with a mate so it was a bit limited to what he was comfortable riding and I overcooked the first run for him.

Is there a chance you’ve maybe built things up a bit in his head? Rather than going to Rogate and him applying a bit too much pressure to himself, is there nowhere local you can build some sensible sized tables for him to work up and practise on?

That’s what we tried… we just went to Swinley (well because Rogate and Windhill were booked up) and the table on babymaker can’t be more than 10′. He wouldn’t even think about it on the FS.

timing is different on full sus vs a hard tail, just need some practice. get yourself down to a pump track and spend an hour or 2 getting used to the bike. From memory, rogate has slightly flatter dh jumps (rather than steep dj jumps) so you may just not be carrying the speed in thats required (little bikes get bucked a lot more on the way in so feel like you’re going quicker).

on a big bike, the rear kick of the jump is absorbed by the bike, this obviously isn’t the case on a hard tail. weight back a little further and move around the bike, you’ll get used to it.

hard tails are easier to pump, so can generally jump a bit bigger than a squashy bike – I can get over steep doubles on my dj bike that I’d have no hope of on my downhill bike. similarly, I wouldn’t want to hit a 30′ gap on my hardtail (but the big bike is fine for that sort of thing).

This sounds spot on … its miles to a decent pump track though.

Rogate Sunday… where’how and me and a few may come down.

he’d just switch bikes…

^^ this
im no jumper..
but i took my FS to a load of safe tabletop dirt jumps… and hated it..
the timing was totally alien to me after being comfortable on my hardtail.. im sure the same is in reverse

If it makes him feel better I can jump rigid and HT but not full suspension. Goes all over the place on full sus!

Where are you based? The pumptrack at Horsham is really nice, can’t be too far given the spots you mention?

yesterday I went out with the 11yr old.

Complete disaster – he barely cleared a 10′ table and was so embarrassed we had to go somewhere with no-one watching.

Does he normally clear 10′ tables or is this one of those absurdist parody threads? Maybe I’m out of touch with the youth of today, is it standard for an 11 year to clear a 10′ table?

Yeah he does.

Normal, no. But his lad is a talented boy.

oh in that case I’m jealous. good luck!

oh in that case I’m jealous. good luck!

You’d be amazed how talented some of the small things are… We see plenty over at Swinley Summit etc.. Don’t get me wrong, they are the exception, but it’s a fairly broad exception. lol

Windhill often sees a lot of really good kids – a load were there last time making me feel bad about my jumping!

Does he normally clear 10′ tables or is this one of those absurdist parody threads? Maybe I’m out of touch with the youth of today, is it standard for an 11 year to clear a 10′ table?

At Rogate – yes. Lots of good kids there. I prefer the mid-week work-from-home middle-aged punter slots there so I don’t get shown up by the kids.

I prefer the mid-week work-from-home middle-aged punter slots there so I don’t get shown up by the kids.

Myself and a few of the other parents have kinda just come to terms with it now on Saturdays, they’re just so damn impressive and fearless.

I’ll have to pop over when you and stevextc are there. Can’t do this sunday though. Catch up there sometime soon though – its a great autumn/winter spot.

I’ll have to pop over when you and stevextc are there. Can’t do this sunday though. Catch up there sometime soon though – its a great autumn/winter spot

I’ve never been yet, although my riding buddy and his 2 lads were disucssing it for this weekend. I’m up for going down if they do, but won’t be taking my bike yet as i’m still on restricted duties for another 3 weeks yet. So my actual preference is a bit of Swinley/Local riding this weekend, but we’ll have to see how things go.

Does he normally clear 10′ tables or is this one of those absurdist parody threads?

Without sounding too smug … (as he’s way better than me) a 10′ table isn’t even interesting to him. I didn’t measure the table at Swinley but it’s prob about that … and something he’d clear effortlessly on the FS. I don’t usually bother measuring tables or gaps as it’s a bit pointless .. so just guessing.

Sending on the FS (he’s in black/red) performing for the film crew after he got into a long jump comp with Deakin and Warner. Not the longest he did as he had to slow down because his mate in front was taking it easy but I was following him on the others.

View this post on Instagram

My @filthyridesmtb jersey is back for a boost session @rogatedh_b1kepark … another meet with @alfiebikes and fantastic meeting @charliebaker_08 … more to come but here is boosting mainline .. got a train with Warner and @deakinator1 as well then met @zimblake on the way to the carpark.. all I’ll say on that is watch @globalmountainbikenetwork for Fred a suicide machine only @zimblake would “ride” #mtb #downhillmtb #kidsmtb #littlerippers #grom #rogate #mainline #sendit #vtt #vttdescente #vttdh #kidsdownhill #b1kepark

A post shared by OlsterMTB (@olstermtb) on Sep 2, 2020 at 3:55am PDT

Miserable fails .. (he was embarassed with people watching so we moved to another line…by the time we went back someone got hurt on the table so we had to move whilst the ambulance came so didn’t actually get to film the table).

Can’t work out how to do the link from google photos so you’ll need to press.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mxNp7Gb1huBL1GCe9

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hPuVdwJ8JPB2UjW96

It’s a HUGE difference … neither of us expected.

5lab

Where are you based? The pumptrack at Horsham is really nice, can’t be too far given the spots you mention?

We’re in Woking so about 50 mins… there is another good looking one at Crawley as well.
Mainly I just need to get him somewhere without an audience. Whereas he doesn’t care about actual crashes he does care a LOT if people see him do something less than he thinks he should. I had to promise not to post those shots on FB/Insta before he’d even let me film him.

It’s just a different technique on a HT to a FS, isn’t it? Stuff takes longer to happen and needs more input on a FS than on a HT.

Looking at the 2 google clips he’s going much slower / the jump doesn’t have much of a lip and it looks like his technique is pushing down into the bike and then using the spring to get in the air.

I’m no great jumper but I’d probably do better on that little jump, but I’d be hopeless on that bigger jump!

He’ll probably need to get more of a manual technique going on small stuff like that and then stand tall once the front is up in the air.

Equally if he took the hardtail to the faster jump higher up he’d probably be ok with what he’s doing as he’ll be going faster / there’s much more of a lip to kick you into the air.

I agree that he’s just going slower, so probably needs more confidence – just being on the bike some more will help, and getting used to how the thing handles.

The crawley pumptrack you’re thinking of is probably the same one (horsham) – which is nice. If he’s into dirt jumping you can combine it with a play at s4p pretty easily, lots of progression available there..

It looks more like he is trying to manual the hardtails than pop them if that makes sense?

Jumping on a HT is a similar move to a proper bunnyhop – others will be along to convert what I am trying to say into something that makes sense.

I’m no great jumper but I’d probably do better on that little jump, but I’d be hopeless on that bigger jump!

Yep… I did better on that jump!

It’s just a different technique on a HT to a FS, isn’t it? Stuff takes longer to happen and needs more input on a FS than on a HT.

Yep I’m no expert but it just seems like he’s doing everything too early….then not committing.

I agree that he’s just going slower, so probably needs more confidence – just being on the bike some more will help, and getting used to how the thing handles.

The crawley pumptrack you’re thinking of is probably the same one (horsham) – which is nice. If he’s into dirt jumping you can combine it with a play at s4p pretty easily, lots of progression available there..

Yeah I was wondering if a trip to Milford might just sort it out?
I don’t want to push stuff as he’s of an age and temperament to just give up on anything that involves having to work at it.

I don’t want to push stuff as he’s of an age and temperament to just give up on anything that involves having to work at it.

You mention that a lot and i don’t want to over-analyze here, but maybe that’s something you need to work on mate ? My lad and his jump buddies are the exact opposite to Ollie it seems in that context.

I was going to comment earleir about the ‘not allowed to post on social media’, again, our lads wouldn’t have any issues at all, they just laugh and joke when they fail or case jumps/landings etc, it’s all part of the laughs and the fun ?

milford is pretty full-on from a jumping perspective – there’s a very small rollable line, then a line with small doubles (more commitment needed than he got in those vids) then it starts getting pretty serious. There’s often really good riders there, so it might not be the one if he’s lacking confidence/persistance. the jumps are generally much steeper than the stuff in any of those vids, its a great skill to have, but a different one to hitting dh jumps

Paton <vid>

PrinceJohn

Jumping on a HT is a similar move to a proper bunnyhop – others will be along to convert what I am trying to say into something that makes sense.

Fair point …. bunny hops are something he never bothers with… trailhops, manuals yep…. skinnies and track stands yep

Just seen the video.

Definitely to early looks like he is trying to pre jump.
It’s a very gentle “jump” (no real lip) so would require a lot of speed or a proper hop to get off the ground.

If you’re in Woking there is a little pump track in Wokingham behind Morrisons.

The other issue (from my BMX bias) is that as he is only 11 he is quite small and jumping a big bike is hard. A full sus with it’s spring and loads of speed (clearly not lacking that from the rogate video) has helped him jump what is a very big bike for him. On the HT he needs more of a lip to give him pop as I suspect hopping a bike bike is quite a challenge.

TheBrick

Thanks … makes perfect sense.

The 4x/DJ (2nd vid) is small but the SAS wheel is pretty heavy… and its really really stiff.
The steel HT has some spring .. but obviously sod all rebound so perhaps why on the bigger table with a bit better lip (not filmed) he felt he was being bucked.
Even on the little lip I was easily clearing it [remarkable for me*] on both bikes but then I’m crap at pre-loading and 2.5x his weight.

*I guess that was part of the puzzle… I found it so easy to clear stuff I’d have had to put effort into normally…and we both had an expectation he’d just fly on the HT. I think ironically my bad technique on a FS works better on a HT and visa versa added to his weight or lack of.

I’ve also been taking the XC HT over the same table all summer… and had the benefit of riding Rogate Friday with a mate.

Wow, there’s a world of difference between the FS and HT vids!

If anything, on the HT he doesn’t look like he wants to put in the speed he needs to get the momentum. But also watching his knees there’s not a great deal going on. Bend, load, explode.

get him in a decent skatepark a couple times a week on a BMX or jump bike.