Was quite the mad man eh?

Decided I needed to fill a hole in my knowledge of the Soviet Union, oh say from 1918-1988 or there about 😆 , so decided to pick up a book. Randomly went for the Soviet Century, by Moshe Lewin. Seems a decent attempt to give you insight into the structural make up of the Soviet union, but I’m only 140 pages in, plenty to go. Fascinating so far anyhow.

But by god, the Soviet Union from the mid 20s to the 40s and I guess further on, I’ve only built a picture from around 22 til 40 at the minute, isn’t half the absurdist/dystopian nightmare.

I’ve read Orwell, Kafka, and tbh, 1984, Animal Farm, The Trial don’t really have a look in when it actually comes to the reality of this stuff.

The cult of Stalin is mental, a system actually setup around his sole divine unerring rule, a system so mental, that even when he was doing his purges in the late 30s, once the purges were done he actually purged half the people doing the purging in the NKVD, bat s mental, and that’s before you even get into the economics of the gulags, or the structural realities of the famines and stuff, Kafka doesn’t have a look in here.

I thought the early manoeuvrings were quite devious when he was basically conniving against Lenin, but really is quite mental once you start to get deeper in, his great leap forward was crazy. Ignorantly I always assumed that was a Maoist thing, fairly obvious he takes the lead from Stalin in the attempts to brutally take an agrarian society into rapid industrialisation, with little concern for the populace.

Clearly up there with the maddest bastards in history. But does make you wonder, and I’ve not read much about his time in the war yet, but I’ve a decent enough picture there. But you wonder though, despite the obvious psychotic tendencies of Stalin, if the likes of Lenin, Trotsky et all were actually able to take their project forward, what would have happened when it became their time to face Hitler? (I dunno, I need to read more into them after this tbh)

Just a question that occurs, cause not actually sure of Stalins main motivations, but it’s clear that in 1939 the Soviet Union weren’t ready to take on Hilter yet, so the 1939 pact was obvious from his standpoint. But Stalin had been making a psychotic drive towards industrialisation for years at this point, you wonder if perhaps the slower paced committee based approach would ever had the Soviets ready for what was to come.

Anyhoo, just some random thoughts for the day. Comments welcome!

For anyone without the inclination to read the book, there’s a cracking podcast called “Real Dictators” narrated by Paul McGann of the McGann family, yes. They do 6-ish episodes on all the big guys – deeper-than-normal dive for podcasts. I binged the series on Stalin a few weeks ago over a couple of days at work. I thought I’d heard about a lot of the utterly batshite mentalism of his reign. But, no, as Seosamh says, the level of craziness was something else. I had no idea!

They’ve just finished Idi Amin – also just utterly crazy – but that’s another thread.

My current read
Great Terror

He wiped out millions on lies and rhetoric.

Just a question that occurs, cause not actually sure of Stalins main motivations, but it’s clear that in 1939 the Soviet Union weren’t ready to take on Hilter yet, so the 1939 pact was obvious from his standpoint. But Stalin had been making a psychotic drive towards industrialisation for years at this point, you wonder if perhaps the slower paced committee based approach would ever had the Soviets ready for what was to come.

Not sure if the others would have implemented the 5 year plans that helped the industrial capacity. But they probably wouldn’t have purged their military which was another reason they weren’t ready to face Hitler in 1939.

gobuchul
Free Member
Not sure if the others would have implemented the 5 year plans that helped the industrial capacity. But they probably wouldn’t have purged their military which was another reason they weren’t ready to face Hitler in 1939.

Yeah, interesting point, I did actually make a note to look into the likes of Tukhachevsky, that was quite a deviously planned fall he had.

deadlydarcy
Free Member
I thought I’d heard about a lot of the utterly batshite mentalism of his reign. But, no, as Seosamh says, the level of craziness was something else. I had no idea!

Defo the same, really do need to force myself to pick up more history books. I’m always engrossed when I do.

If you’ve not seen it, you should watch The Death of Stalin, it’s on Netflix at the moment. I doubt it’ll add much that the book doesn’t cover, (er, I’m not sure there’s much historical accuracy in there at all actually!) but it’s a brilliant film.

Have you seen the movie The Death of Stalin? Brutally funny satire, not a documentary but sometimes fiction is better at getting at the truth of things than non-fiction.

Edit. Beaten to it by 10 seconds.

cause not actually sure of Stalins main motivations

The purges and terrors have always been a subject of lots of variations on the theme of “Eh?” normally falls to either personally afraid of being assassinated, after the murder of Kirov or I think the current theory is his fear of counter-revolution.

Fascinating and horrific all at the same time

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic”

Probably didn’t say it, or quoted from another

nickc
Full Member

The purges and terrors have always been a subject of lots of variations on the theme of “Eh?” normally falls to either personally afraid of being assassinated, after the murder of Kirov or I think the current theory is his fear of counter-revolution.

Yeah big questions on the motivation, paranoia and a desire to rewrite his own history obviously play a big part, but during the purges he replaced most of the old guard in the party. Says of the 1934 congress, of 1018 delegates, most were arrested, with 848 shot. in doing this though he also replaced them with younger half ready people that would more inclined towards him I guess.

So an eye on history, an eye on paranoia, but also an eye on implementing his plan going forward without the dissent of the old guard I think. Which does allude to the counter revolutionary aspect you mention.

& we think Boris is bad? 😂

Fantastic subject and we could probably devote a whole forum to it! I don’t know a huge amount about the pre ‘39 stuff, other than a bit of background reading I’ve been doing on how the Soviet occupations prepared the ground for the mass murder to follow.

I cannot conceive of what it must have been like to be an ordinary person just trying to survive in those dark years.

I think the point about how others would have coped with the German invasion is a really good one, although I’m not really keen on counterfactuals. I do believe though that Stalin’s personality played a key role in turning the tide in the East.

Despite them being mortal enemies, Hitler was quite admiring of Stalin’s ruthlessness when it came to the massacre and sacrificing of millions of people!

Oh, and also very prescient given that there seems to be quite a bit of revisionism going on in Russia at the moment.

But they probably wouldn’t have purged their military which was another reason they weren’t ready to face Hitler in 1939.

Posted 1 hour ago

Then purged the purgers and the purgers of the purgers to hide the initial mistake which was sown in part by German spies.SS; if that is floating your boat,you should get one on Russia from the middle of the 1800’s to the end of the revolution. Slavery to Communist revolution in a little over a lifetime.

I’ve never read anything about Stalin but a few years back happened across The Stalin Epigram by Robert Littell (author of The Company, which is superb). I found it very good – a very gritty portrait of life under the system.
https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/robert-littell/the-stalin-epigram/

 Russia from the middle of the 1800’s to the end of the revolution.

The whole region is steeped in history that is largely un-taught and unknown in this country, including post WW1 Ukrainian collectivity anarchist communes (read histories of Nestor Makhno) both at war with and supported by the Bolsheviks and red Army and their wars with German supported Mennonite farmers.

The Death of Stalin, it’s on Netflix at the moment. I doubt it’ll add much that the book doesn’t cover, (er, I’m not sure there’s much historical accuracy in there at all actually!)

The basic premise is spot on. IE because of the cult of Stalin he couldn’t be dead. What if he wasn’t dead and you were the first to declare him dead? And of course that’s what happened. He wasn’t dead but he was dying. He created the circumstances of his own death. A paralysis of power because there could only be one ultimate figure of power.
AA knows his stuff!

Still today that paralysis of power can be seen in the structures of the state and the cult of Putin. Economic advantages (or lack of) are often spoken of in terms of Russias access to warm water ports. Yet Russia under Putin has acted repeatedly through hard power rather then soft in trying to gain access to warm water. This has meant a continuous downward pressure on the Russian economy.

The whole region is steeped in history that is largely un-taught and unknown in this country

+1

This guy was a hero and almost no one has heard of him. His books are still very readable and relevant today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Kropotkin

@nickc:

The whole region is steeped in history that is largely un-taught and unknown in this country, including post WW1 Ukrainian collectivity anarchist communes (read histories of Nestor Makhno) both at war with and supported by the Bolsheviks and red Army and their wars with German supported Mennonite farmers.

How did you learn of Makhno? Just to be clear, the Mennonites were German; they weren’t ‘German-supported’. I know because I’m one of them. My great-grandparents were executed by Makhno.

deadlydarcy
Free Member
For anyone without the inclination to read the book, there’s a cracking podcast called “Real Dictators” narrated by Paul McGann

That was a good listen, rattled through the 3 eps there. cheers for the recommendation, good to get a picture of the earlier stuff and an outline from another point of view, looks like a lot of good stuff to listen to.

How did you learn of Makhno?

By reading Platform, his most famous work.

It’s just that most Westerners, as well as many Ukrainians, know nothing about him. And I, having grown up knowing where my German-Mennonite grandparents came from, only learnt of Makhno in the last few years. Anyway, thanks for bringing up his name; it is certainly worth knowing!

Incidentally, did you read anything more about the Mennonites?

He wiped out millions on lies and rhetoric.

Thus putting in place a pattern for others to follow…

You think Stalin is mad?

Wait till you meet his mate Mao who thinks he is god.

chewkw
Free Member
You think Stalin is mad?

Wait till you meet his mate Mao who thinks he is god.

Yeah, met him before, need to do a deeper dive. 😆

Yeah, met him before, need to do a deeper dive. 😆

Mao and his regime did not just punish or eliminate his opposition (everyone that opposed them), they extend that to their families and friends etc. As the traditional saying the “9 layers of association” i.e. friend of a friend of a friend of …. hence in the “uncivilised” land the people (Chinese desert people) were completely wipe out. i.e. extinct.

During cultural revolution modern flashing toilet or sewage system was consider western influence and decadent, so they demolished that to force the people to poo in a bucket (yes, they did and you can see them in old house in Shanghai) and to empty them where ever they could (usually drainage in front of the house). In those days if people were lucky they got someone (workers) to collect their poo early in the morning calling out “Empty your bucket!” …

Yeah that’s the whole North Korean vibe at the minute eh.

https://www.channel5.com/show/1-000-years-of-history-china

I watched that just before Christmas, was a good outline, decent viewing anyhow, to get a vague idea, didn’t actually realise how big an event Tianamen square was to change the subject for a second, there’s one on Scotland and Ireland available too now. Still got America, Australia & Russia to come.

I do need to focus in on some books about China. (Any recommendations, fire them up.)

I also watched up the yangtse which was decent viewing too.

It seems like it’s a lot like being a bike race organiser- being crazy is almost a prerequisite and often an advantage.

Incidentally, did you read anything more about the Mennonites?

So, my wife’s maternal line is German Mennonite, they fled Ukraine in the 20’s to settle in Canada. The history of how those folks got to Ukraine isn’t a happy one I’m afraid. Long story short; They were bought in to these areas (by Tzars and their supporters) in the mid 19th to cultivate the huge acres of crops that Russia needed to feed itself. They were offered huge amounts of land (regardless of local ownership) at very cheap prices, offered ridiculous tax avoidance schemes (no tax payable for 100-1000 of years sort of gig) and were locally self governing, to work the farms. Makhno grew up on these farms, amid growing local resentment and growing revolutionary movements

I do need to focus in on some books about China.

the thing that always blows my mind when you start to look into even just the recent history of China, is just how hidden huge events are. Things like the Taiping Civil War Which may have caused more casualties than WW1, and it’s largely unknown or forgotten