Yeah, who wants to win elections anyway, eh?

Given your desire for Labour to revert to its electoral dead-end, I assume you don’t.

Corbyn is more electable than the next Blairite off the rank be it Cooper, Burnham or whoever.

As soon as the Tories realised they could pretend to be centrists plus keep all the old Tory trump cards (racism, low tax etc) New Labour didnt have a chance.  New Labour and the Tories are basically the same to the average voter except New Labour crashed the economy, invited in loads of immigrants and sold the gold blah blah blah.

Give me any arguement that a New Labour MP might use to attack a Tory and I will knock it for 6 out of the park.

Corbyn is more electable than the next Blairite off the rank be it Cooper, Burnham or whoever.

Hmmmmm…… no, I don’t agree.

In order to be electable, you need to have charisma.  Your points above are valid, but most people don’t vote for the parties or the policy, they vote for the person.  I’m no fan of Tony Blair’s, but what he did have was charisma….. and every single party leader (on both sides) since that point has been stunningly devoid of it.

The turning point for me was when Labour voted for the wrong Miliband – one was extremely electable, the other seemed like he would struggle to organise a school fete.  All Cameron had to do was be more electable than Ed – a low bar.

The only remotely electable Snr labour politician at the moment seems to be Sadiq Kahn – but unfortunately I don’t think the UK is ready for a minority PM

I’m no fan of Tony Blair’s, but what he did have was charisma…..

Sure, but he was declining badly by 2005, and was lucky that the Tories were such a rabble back then.

@batfink MORE electable 🙂  Check out the Labour leadership contest debates to see who has the most charisma out of the afforementioned.

I’m no fan of Tony Blair’s, but what he did have was charisma…..

Sure, but he was declining badly by 2005, and was lucky that the Tories were such a rabble back then.

Hahaha…… more of a rabble than they are now?

 Check out the Labour leadership contest debates to see who has the most charisma out of the afforementioned.

No thanks 🙂  But there must be SOMEBODY in the Labour party with more charisma than Jezza, just on the basis that he has none (outside of the sort of charisma that only works on momentum members).  I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.

“In order to be electable, you need to have charisma.”

He’s been elected, twice. Does Theresa May have charisma? John Major? Politics doesn’t have to be a cult of personality, arguably it’s worst when it is.

(yes, I know people claim Corbyn’s appeal is a cult of personality, but the same people say he doesn’t have one, so let’s not pay that too much heed)

He’s been elected, twice

By a sub-population not representative (I suspect) of the wider electorate

Does Theresa May have charisma?

It’s relative.  She won against Jezza.  As bad as she is, she’s still better (in most peoples minds) than JC.

John Major?

As above, but Kinnock

Politics doesn’t have to be a cult of personality, arguably it’s worst when it is.

I agree completely, however, the reality is that it is.

I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.

So rather than standing up and showing some leadership, they are skulking in the shadows in some Machiavellian scheme for personal power. Sounds very Tory to me. Personally I find a good leadership trait in a politician is someone who will do the right thing even if it costs them personally.

I agree completely, however, the reality is that it is.

Yes, politics is all about the likability of the leader.  Th detail and specifics of policies are less important.  You need a popular character at the front repeatedly spouting populist one liners.

Formula for Labour to win is as follows;

– Find most likeable member of Labour party and put them in as leader

– Keep saying you will increase minimum wage, increase NHS funding, increase police funding, tax rich companies

Just say it every week so it is the only thing the electorate associates with the party.  The tories, media etc, will rightly question where the money is coming from but that doesn’t matter as the majority of electorate are not reading that or watching or listening to the politics based tv and radio that discusses it.

Hahaha…… more of a rabble than they are now?

No, but Labour were in power and had plenty of seats to play with. Look up their vote share compared to 2017…

 I suspect that anyone with genuine leadership potential is keeping their powder dry.

This. Since the changing of the electoral rules and the colonisation of the party by Momentum everyone in the Labour party knows that if there was a leadership election tomorrow he’d get an even bigger majority no matter who he stood against. So they’re all sensibly keeping their heads down.

That rule change that Millibean brought in was the greatest gift the Tory party could have ever received. It was literally all their Christmases and Birthdays come at once. As the present state of things show it can also be a curse as well as a blessing.

For the country, in particular, and long suffering voters wathing in horror at our present political system

Any party in power does need an opposition that is at least functioning at some kind of level to keep it in check. The fact that the present labour party isn’t even that has allowed them to dissolve into open civil war and descend into the total shambles that now passes for governance. Yet still they’re ahead in the polls even as they tear into one another.

The truth is that Corbyn i unelectable for the same reason he’s always been…. just too much baggage for most voters to swallow. Yes, the right wing press have made a meal of it, but trawling through his past is the gift that just keeps giving for them. He’s an open goal.

And if Jezza scares the horses in marginal constituencies (the ones you have to win) then John Macdonnell, Len McCluskey and Dianne Abbot put the fear of God in them.

Our entire political system (in the present 2 party state) is totally broken and no longer fit for purpose, and Corbyn is a major part of the reason for that, and most certainly not the answer to it

In order to be electable, you need to have charisma

Even if we take this claim as true it is fairly clear he does have some. Your endless ranting about the Corbyn cult would tend to indicate that you actually agree as well. Cults are all about Charisma.

It may be that you feel his charisma isnt sufficiently broad but to claim he doesnt have any is nuts. Even if you dont see it yourself (I dont either for what its worth). May on the other hand really doesnt have any.

As Northwind says though this focus on “Charisma” is dangerous.  That way you end up with glossy salespeople willing to say anything for the sale.

The turning point for me was when Labour voted for the wrong Miliband – one was extremely electable,

Ah yes the king across the water. The problem is though this hasnt been put to the test. Remember he was pretty much a clone of Blair. Blair of course knew that his approach only works so long. Thats why he resigned before going into an election he would have had a good chance of losing. The tories had got wise to the game and were able to play it just as well.

Our entire political system (in the present 2 party state) is totally broken and no longer fit for purpose, and Corbyn is a major part of the reason for that,

Yeah yeah. Corbyn, whilst not the right answer, is along the right lines. Actually having a left wing party as opposed to a party which whilst trying to triangulate the swing voters followed the tories ever rightward.

Your endless ranting about the Corbyn cult

Errrr….. this was my first post on this thread I think, are you confusing me with someone else?

Yes, the trouble is that politics is changing in this country at such a bewildering rate. If you look at the Tory party now they make the Cameron incarnation of a few years ago look like a bunch of Guardian-readers, they’re so extreme.

And if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, then Momentum must feel flattered as the hard right UKIPers/Tommy Robinson supporters embark on doing to the Tory Party what Momentum has already done to Labour. To be honest, they’ve always been headed that way anyway.

But the upshot of this is that in the aftermath of Brexit we could be left with an electoral choice between a Jezza labour party who most people (rightly or wrongly) as ‘Hard Left’ (I don’t personally), and an ultra-right wing Tory party led by one of the proper Brexit headbangers.

I don’t think thats a choice many would feel particularly palatable. I already feel politically disenfranchised. I expect if this was the case, the vast majority of the countries voters would feel nobody really represented their views.

The irony being that it was a project to ‘democratise’ the two main parties that will have led us there. The law of unintended consequences, eh?

this was my first post on this thread I think, are you confusing me with someone else?

Sorry thought it was Binners. So are you still claiming he has no charisma? Given the excitable lot chanting his name at festivals and stuff I would say thats hard to support.

That rule change that Millibean brought in was the greatest gift the Tory party could have ever received. It was literally all their Christmases and Birthdays come at once.

I just don’t get this, and I think this is the main area where we differ. The rule change Miliband brought in allowed a redistribution of power from the top of the party to the bottom. For all it’s faults, it was an exercise in democratic empowerment. How can that be a bad thing? If it were up to me, all candidates for all parties should be elected in democratic primaries. You say our system is broken. I agree completely, but it’s broken because those at the top who hold power, be they labour or tory, protect that power by disenfranchising everyone else.

If we want to fix politics, reforms like those that Miliband brought in need to be expanded across the board and enshrined in law. Do that and we might just have a chance of re-engaging the population to giving a shit about their own and the country’s interests and actually taking some responsibility for it. If the population were more engaged in politics, they wouldn’t have voted for brexit. The only way you get them engaged is to give them more power through elections, and as far as I can see, that’s exactly what Corbyn is trying to do within the labour party.

Given the present totally hopeless state of the labour party, the UKIPisation of the Tories and with the UK having voted for Brexit, you honestly think thats whats needed is more ‘voices of the people’ style grass-roots democracy?

Seriously?

I’d advocate the complete opposite. Hand over the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or someone who knows about stuff like that, and make damn sure that the general public have as little opportunity as possible to ever get anywhere near the decision-making process ever again!

I already feel politically disenfranchised.

I’m not sure I understand why. I can understand you not liking Corbyn (I’m generally agnostic on Corbyn but I can see why he annoys some people). But how do his party reforms or the policies they party have adopted disenfranchise you? You’ve already said you don’t think they’re ‘hard left’. Seems to me there’s a massive dissonance between the image of Corbyn and his supporters that is presented by the media and the reality. There seems to be this obsession that they’re all headbanging militant trots who like nothing more than to spout off in committee meetings about the bourgeoisie oppression of the workers.

I know quite a few momentum people who got involved post-Corbyn and nothing could be further from the truth. Sure there are some old-school nutters from the 70s/80s, but most of them are young millenial types pissed off with the system looking for more radical solutions, or ex-environmental and social justice activists who are more interested in actually doing stuff than sitting in stuffy committee rooms. They’re also mostly very middle class, very well educated, and have long histories in community activism, direct action, and all sorts of other grassroots political action. If the party is being taking over by anyone, it’s being taken over by these people, and that as far as I can see is a massively positive thing.

you honestly think thats whats needed is more ‘voices of the people’ style grass-roots democracy?

What is needed is for people to feel engaged in the system. Not to feel like they are just expected to tick a box every five years and then sod off. Or to feel that their voice is secondary to those paying the parties to advertise to them.

They need to be able to look at the major parties and choose one which represents them. Whether that is the tories, Labour or Lib dems,, SNP/Plaid Cymru if applicable, preferably the Greens and then a more locally oriented party doesnt really matter. What we cant have is the situation we ended up in with new labour and the orange book lib dems where they just chased the tories on a large number of policies ever rightwards. So all politicians were seen as identikit taking a brief time in the public sector before going on to their reward from the private sector. That is where the populists found the voice. Being able to promise representation for a large number of people who didnt feel represented any longer.

Hand over the logistics of running the country over to Tesco or someone who knows about stuff like that

You do realise that there is a subtle difference between running a shopping chain (which has had a fair few problems) and running a country. Its a tad harder to shut down an underperforming town than a store and also the method of screwing the suppliers doesnt really transfer across.

I know it was the new labour dream to hand everything over to the experts in the private sector but that really hasnt turned out to well has it?

I think that the public have shown in pretty resounding style recently that they simply can’t be trusted with democracy. If Brexit has demonstrated anything it’s that handing the average UK citizen a massively important decision to make is like handing a hand grenade to a monkey who’s sat smoking spice.

Will they carefully examine it and weigh up the options? Of course not, they’ll read something on the side of a bus, then pull the pin out and try and eat it.

I don’t want more public involvement in politics. Its the very last thing we as a society need. I want far less. If you want to join a political party, as they are at present,  you should probably be sectioned for your own benefit. Or shot. Or left in a room with a spice-addled monkey who’s just been given a hand grenade. I’m easy with any of those

I’m sorry, but given the events of the last few years, we’d be better off revoking the parliament and the constitution, and establishing a military dictatorship with whichever one of the chuckle brothers is still alive at the helm, and lots of guns. Lots of guns. And hand grenades. And spice. And monkeys.it can’t be any worse than this, can it?

Well the choices seem to be:

1. Effective dictatorship with monkeys as above (see Saudi Arabia, Egypt, China) as role models

2. Status quo – ignore the plebs but then get screwed by protest votes like Brexit

3. Listen to people and address their real problems

Which of these choices sounds best? Which one does Labour most correspond to? Tories?

Been “trawling” other blogs and what i have established is

1. Its mainly ideology- the hate for EU Socialism? Unelected EU ministers, Sovereignty, etc.

2. Its not about money or quality of life

3. These people despise the EU

So not matter what the misery they want it.

The bottom line is this country is completely divided there is little or no grey area.

If you sit on the remain side of the fence its going to be a miserable country to live in.

Given the present totally hopeless state of the labour party,

We can argue over how well they should be doing, but your comment is ridiculous hyperbole.

They’re 5 points behind in the polls to a government that has split in two, the two halves of which are openly slogging lumps out of each other, all while the country drifts towards economic armageddon, without looking like its got a ****ing clue what to do about it other than double down and make it even more catastrophic

Meanwhile, the party on the opposite benches are totally incapable of articulating a vision that can convince a majority of people that they can offer a better alternative to THAT!! To Boris ****ing Johnson!!!!

I don’t know what your definition of ‘hopeless’ is, but to me, thats going to take some ****ing beating!!!

I’m with Binners, fractionally more hopeless than the most hopeless Government in living memory ought to meet any definition of hopeless.

I think that the public have shown in pretty resounding style recently that they simply can’t be trusted with democracy.

I’m convinced the very opposite is true. It’s the basis for pretty much every political belief or opinion I have. The problem isn’t democracy, it’s the stupid way in which it’s implemented. We vote every now and again for someone to represent us, with no guarantee that they will, and very little power to remove them if they don’t. Hardly a surprise is it that people then either become apathetic, turn to snake-oil populists, or seek to blame others like foreigners and/or the poor? The only real solution is to give people power. Yes sometimes they’ll exercise it in stupid ways, like brexit, but over time they will engage, learn and do better in future.

And just on a point of order. Any leader who’s ever come along and claimed that they know the answer to everything, be it Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Thatcher, Reagan, Blair etc has been proven wrong by history, and billions have suffered because of it. Top-down unnaccountable government only serves one purpose, and that’s to protect the power and interests of those who have it.

They’re 5 points behind in the polls

You’re doing it again. Most opinion polls over the last couple of months are within the margin of error. Cherry-picking to suit your argument does you no credit.

the two halves of which are openly slogging lumps out of each othe

Unlike Labour eh? Where the moderates arent just disagreeing about Brexit but are in an all out war to destroy Corbyn and co. Admittedly they have gone  a bit quiet recently but as per the antisemitism row its clear its just a truce time and they are more interested in trying to drag Labour rightwards as opposed to opposing the tories.

Also you havent provided your great solution. Remember o guru that the Labour heartlands are mostly pro brexit. Why should Labour sacrifice themselves to save the tories? Bearing in mind if they did so then the tories would use it as an opportunity to push through even more right wing policies.

Another PMQT where he didn’t want to mention the B word.

WTF?

Another PMQT where he didn’t want to mention the B word.

WTF?

Because he is happy to see that it is going ahead as that’s what he wants, he also hopes to keep a low profile so as few people as possible notice that he is gagging for brexit and a hard one as he doesn’t want to be hampered by EU restrictions if he gets in.

So the opinion polls have labour ‘within the margin of error’ behind this flailing, bickering, utterly incompetent, totally rudderless administration?

What ambition! What vision! What leadership!

Dont worry folks. Everything’s going to be fine. Jeremy, Dianne And John have got this covered now that their path to number ten is assured

Dear God!

So the opinion polls have labour ‘within the margin of error’ behind this flailing, bickering, utterly incompetent, totally rudderless administration?

You were telling us that they are five points behind. Make your mind up.

Its you that said that, not me. The poll I read in the Observer on Sunday had them 5 points behind.

Some achievement!

Maybe he could have people make up a chant about it to sing at festivals?

Ooooooooh….. margin of errrooooooor…….

Its you that said that, not me. The poll I read in the Observer on Sunday had them 5 points behind.

Yeah, sorry to introduce a fact into your silly diatribe. Still, it’s all here to quote back, the next time you accuse Corbyn’s supporters of being juvenile.

Can I ask you seriously what your opinion is about Corbyns ‘position’ on Brexit?

I agree with TurnerGuy. Corbyn wants Brexit just as much as Rees Mogg. The harder the better (oo-er missus!). The only difference between him and the Tory headbangers is that he’s made the concession that we should be in ‘a’ customs union. And he was totally bounced into that by Kier Starmer, completely against his instinct.

So why do his disciples keep faith in him, given this?

Genuine question, as i’m Intrigued by this totally contradictory position of (IMHO) unquestioningly supporting a position that is clearly not in their interests, and is essentially (again IMHO) a right wing coup?

i’d really Like to know your opinion on it. Feel free to carry on insulting me, but if you could talk me through your opinion onCorbyns Brexit ‘policies’ (such as they are) thet’d be great

Thanks in advance…

Can I ask you seriously what your opinion is about Corbyns ‘position’ on Brexit?

I’d be happy to debate Corbyn with someone whose mind is more open than yours

So why do his disciples keep faith in him, given this?

Because there is a lot else to like, basically.

I’d be happy to debate Corbyn with someone whose mind is more open than yours

By which you mean people with the same opinion as yourself and the beardy messiah

Hats of. Very Corbyn and Momentum. And you’re not even being ironic. Perish the thought you might indulge in doing anything but hurl insults at those with a diffrent point of view, eh? Just ignore the wider debate and convincing other people of your arguament? Carry on preaching to the converted.

You stay in that cosy echo chamber of yours, wrapped in the comfort blanket of knowing you’re right and occupying the moral high ground, becuse… erm… well.. .. just. because, right!.

No answers then? Quelle surprise….

By which you mean people with the same opinion as yourself and the beardy messiah

Your only interest seems to be slagging off Corbyn and his supporters, stridently regurgitating insults, yet having the brass neck to claim that you’re the one being insulted and that Corbyn’s supporters are juvenile.

As an exercise in proving my point, you could hardly have done a better job. If you ever become an adult, people may be more inclined to engage with you .Right now I have zero interest.