What needs to happen in society to change this mindset?

I hear it all too regularly, from otherwise reasonably intelligent people, they seem to exist under the assumption that every penny that they pay in tax is held in a nice little purse with their name on it, growing with inflation, and should be made available on demand
NHS and ‘Dole’ the state pension are the favourites.

How do you quickly and clearly explain to anyone that the money is gone, it was spent, not only that, a whole lot more thats yet to be paid has been spent

What needs to happen in society to change this mindset?

Hi!

“Ive paid into it all these years, I’m entitled…”

but that was how it was sold to them.

It was a social contract – you pay now to support those in need and others will support you when the time comes.

It’s called ‘National Insurance’ – even sounds like it’ll pay out when you need it, doesn’t it?

You seem to be blaming the people that have paid into the system and who now for varying reasons might expect to get some assistance rather than the people that have mismanaged the system.

What needs to happen in society to change this mindset?

We need corbyn in charge so the mindset doesn’t need changed.

Exactly, a very clear social contract, if it was commercial, say your personal pension and the same was true you would be heading to the courts for financial mismanagement, no?

I’d prefer the the Government were honest and say penny on IC or NI will cover X,Y and Z it that is what is needed. Also a firm believer we should have an old-age care insurance scheme too, something providing parity across the UK. What is unpalatable is that the different administrations of this land provide differential care and support. We are still the envy of the world with the NHS though..

This comment usually comes out of people that suddenly find themselves in the situation of people they have been told are the problem.
It’s when a government encouraged sense of entitlent meets the uncomfortable reality of the shrinking welfare state, with a little bit of us and them thrown in…

you pay now to support those in need and others will support you when the time comes.

But they didn’t pay in enough did they.

The ‘ideology first’ right wing frothers on here are really, really upset aren’t they?
Look at the Corbyn thread.

Lots of them too.

They must be aware that their lack of empathy makes them come across as repellent human beings?

But they didn’t pay in enough did they.

They paid in what they were told they needed to pay in by the people trusted to manage the system.

“Ive paid into it all these years, I’m entitled…”

Yes. I have….just like everyone else.
Yes. I am…. just like everyone else.

Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work?

So are you saying that after 43 years in work and paying the dues asked of me all that time I shouldn’t expect to be at least supported a bit in my old age whether it be healthcare or pension?

I’m 33 and have already accepted that there will be nothing for me when I’m old. We won’t accept tax and NI increases but expect to all be able to draw out when the time comes. Cake, eat it…

It’s called ‘National Insurance’ – even sounds like it’ll pay out when you need it, doesn’t it?

No, it doesn’t. It would if it was called “Your Insurance”.

It says “national” – hence it goes for insuring the nation, doesn’t it?

And “they” are part of the nation too, so… 😐

I hear it all too regularly, from otherwise reasonably intelligent people, they seem to exist under the assumption that every penny that they pay in tax is held in a nice little purse with their name on it, growing with inflation, and should be made available on demand
NHS and ‘Dole’ the state pension are the favourites.

Police and Armed Forces seem to think that the rest of us owe them a long and comfortable (early) retirement when the rest of us are having to work longer and put greater amounts in for less return.

If you accept it won’t be there when you need it are you still paying it?

soobalias – Member
How do you quickly and clearly explain to anyone that the money is gone, it was spent

No it hasn’t it’s just been funneled upwards.

I think the social contract was misunderstood somewhat. The money is for those “in need” and is designed as a safety net for those with nothing or very little.

And yes, this means if you’ve been prudent and saved up and own a house you probably won’t get very much.

I suspect the state pension will disappear soon to, especially now compulsory workplace pensions have been introduced.

Of course I’m still paying it, it’s not for me is it.

Also, I’m not planning on needing it…

This comment usually comes out of people that suddenly find themselves in the situation of people they have been told are the problem.

Ain’t that the truth.

At the age of 40 I had to sign on for the first time, having lost my business (at the height of the financial shitstorm), and pretty much everything bar the clothes I was stood up in. It was my first ever contact with the benefit system, having started work at 16, and having paid tax every day of my adult life. I was told I was entitled to the grand total of absolutely nothing! As I was still listed as a company director at companies house, as far as they were concerned I wasn’t unemployed (this took 11 months to sort out).

They told me this after weeks of making me jump through hoops like a circus animal, and fill out about 9,000 forms. The fact I had 2 kids, and no income cut no ice.They couldn’t care less. I was just someone ele they didn’t have to pay anything out to.

Peoples perception of the benefits system, as depicted by the Daily Fail and various Tory ministers, is about as far away from the actual reality as it is possible to get. If they can get away with not paying you a penny, then they couldn’t give a monkeys if you’ve paid into the system every day of your life.

If you’re ever unlucky enough to end up in a similar position (and you wouldn’t believe how easy it is in our present insecure, rights-free, zero hours society, or how quickly it can happen) then you’ll pretty soon understand why the DWP won’t release the stats for suicides linked to benefits payment docking etc.

Just typing this is making me feel anxious, and agitated, at the memory of the shear desperation of it.

The relentless narrative of what our benefits system is like – a life of sitting around watching Sky on your big telly, drinking and smoking is a total myth. In reality its a life lived in quiet desperation, unnoticed or actively despised, on the very fringes of a cold and uncaring society.

So **** you!

This “misconception” probably relates to how the NI system was first marketed.

So, many people now think that Income Tax is for the benefit of the country/society/other people, but NI is for their own personal benefit.

Thus Income Tax is bad, NI is good.

That’s probably why various chancellors have shied away from scrapping the unfair NI system, and increasing the basic rate of income tax.

When are people going to grow out of the “F** you, i’m alright Jack! attitude”?

True dat Binners! Testify!

I was in a very similar position just before xmas last year.
If you’re a complete noob at the welfare system after a lifetime of gainful employment then you’re royally screwed. They don’t give a monkey’s hump.

Binners, as usual, is spot on.

Binners – crap situation to be in. Hopefully vastly improved now.

IMHO the system isn’t there to help “capable” people when they get into trouble and need short term help.
After being made redundant 6-7 years ago(white collar with all the perks) I was repeatedly kicked in the teeth trying to get help to the point where I walked into all the pubs in my local town and asked for work. 1 day later I was working, 2 weeks later I was assistant manager. 13 months later I was back on track and left to do my own thing after retraining on my days off.
Thats my limited experience.
Is there a state pension for me at the end of my working life? Doubt it.
Should I be hacked off paying for other people to have an easy life……………….
Guardian reader (when I get any spare time) before I get clubed to death with the Daily Mail.

Should I be hacked off paying for other people to have an easy life……………….

Who’s getting an easy life? People on state pensions? People having to jump through hoops to prove they’re not able to work, just to get enough money to maybe scrape by? People desperate for a job but there’s 1000 applicants for every position?

I think very, very few people who receive state help have an easy life.

There are people who do take the piss.

I’m reminded of the time European flights were at a standstill because of a volcano. There was a news report of a woman complaining about having to pay for extra nights in a hotel – she said she couldn’t afford it because “I’m on benefits”.

How can you afford to go on holiday whilst on benefits if you’re not taking the piss or benefits are too high?

1st NI is just a tax there is no separate NI pot at the Treasury that is the 1st con.

2nd Is really interesting in that the benefits system is messed up and as I read it at odds with Labours original idea of a safety net. As Binners and others have found out if you have paid in all your life and then find yourself in an unfortunate situation they wash their hands of you very, very quickly. This needs to stop, I’m sure in other countries like Germany what you can claim out is linked (to an extent) what you put in. Be far better to give proper help to those who want it and get them off benefits asap both for their health and the countries pockets, everyone would win. Dibgy Jones was saying last night that the government needs to put more money into retraining people and I would strongly support that.

Yeah, I mean, it’s a bit of a crime that people on benefits can even afford to leave the house. 🙄
Maybe she saved up?
Maybe she quit smoking and put all the spare money in a holiday fund?
Why shouldn’t someone on benefits be able to go on holiday?

How can you afford to go on holiday whilst on benefits if you’re not taking the piss or benefits are too high?

Interesting how the story of this individual made it into the national news. I wonder if it was picked to fit some kind of narrative?

How can you afford to go on holiday whilst on benefits if you’re not taking the piss or benefits are too high?

You could carefully scrimp and save over years to treat yourself once in a while. You could be brought the holiday by friends or family. You could have won the holiday. You could have found an incredible deal. You could be an entirely fictitious character in a story made up to demonise the poor.

Why shouldn’t someone on benefits be able to go on holiday?

Because it’s meant to be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

Still doesn’t answer the question…

I don’t want to get sucked in to this debate but I will say that I’ve been on Jobskeers Allowance before and it’s no picnic.

It’s like your life is put on hold. It’s impossible to save up, it’s hard enough to stretch it week to week.

Plus you have to go to a Jobcentre and be treated like work shy scum. It’s a horrible situation to be in. No one is doing it for fun.

Ben – not everybody is having an easy life on the dole that’s not what I said but I would say that there is a culture in some parts of the every town/city in the country where dole is seen as a right and a way to live. That’s what irks me.
When you see an issue like this being generational then you would think something needs to be done to change it.
Saying that I look at things too simply and will never be a politician!

I don’t want to get sucked in to this debate but I will say that I’ve been on Jobskeers Allowance before and it’s no picnic.

It’s like your life is put on hold. It’s impossible to save up, it’s hard enough to stretch it week to week.

Plus you have to go to a Jobcentre and be treated like work shy scum. It’s a horrible situation to be in. No one is doing it for fun.

Me too – I took a job delivering pizzas to get off it (I work in IT).

I’m a carer, I currently work with a 19 year old autistic guy who is on benefits (also goes to college and wants a job in horticulture). Every year, he scrapes together enough for a few days holiday. Is he such a bastard?

I don’t want to get sucked in to this debate but I will say that I’ve been on Jobskeers Allowance before and it’s no picnic.
It’s like your life is put on hold. It’s impossible to save up, it’s hard enough to stretch it week to week.

Plus you have to go to a Jobcentre and be treated like work shy scum. It’s a horrible situation to be in. No one is doing it for fun.
this + 1.85 million (+ all the others forced off the books)