Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
  • ITT / self supported ethics – riding with a buddy
  • 13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Let’s say someone had just created a very tempting looking 300km ITT near where you live (I’m not naming names yet as I don’t want to steal their thunder 😎).

    You like the idea of posting an official attempt at the ITT, but is that compatible with also riding with a friend (s)?

    I get no gear sharing, that’s easy, and not deliberately drafting one another should be fairly natural given it’s off-road. But what about silly stuff, like how anal do you have to be about not opening gates for one another, or just the general moral boost of having a buddy with you?

    I mean given the choice obviously I would prefer just to ride it with a friend and forego the ITT attempt but would prefer to do both 😎

    bails
    Full Member

    Can’t answer the question, but what’s an ITT?

    oldnpastit
    Full Member

    Individual time trial.

    I think the answer to the OP’s question is in the first word of that name.

    YoKaiser
    Free Member

    Would there be any point in recording a time given that the other person will almost certainly impede you from getting round as quick as you could? Do it as a pair for a recce and if you are serious about the ITT have a go yourself.

    nickjb
    Free Member

    As above, I suspect you’ll be slower as a pair. That said its not individual so the time can’t count. Maybe create a pairs TT on the same course.

    kilo
    Full Member

    For normal tt ing that would not be allowed, iirc you can have support for over 100 mile tts at the roadside handing up food drinks but not anything else. Presumably this is not rttc but are there published rules?

    I don’t see how riding with someone marries with individual. If you’re riding along with someone and they’re moving quotidian obstacles that’s not individual. Someone riding along with one also has the potential to add draft, support, identify best line etc or give encouragement which other riders won’t have and again goes past individual in my book.

    Wasn’t there a big stink on tour divide about what constitutes outside support and iirc that was just support team let alone someone riding with the competitor. So it’s a no from me.

    As above, I suspect you’ll be slower as a pair.

    I suspect if you’re riding with someone much better you’d be faster than otherwise, like in most 2up tt’s, it’s not just drafting that’ll help.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    I think the answer to the OP’s question is in the first word of that name

    Granted, but don’t most ITT routes (in Scotland anyway) have mass starts once a year? e.g. the Cairngorm Loop and the HT550.

    Would there be any point in recording a time given that the other person will almost certainly impede you from getting round as quick as you could?

    Yeah… I guess whoever ended up being the slower rider on the day would end up benefitting from the faster rider waiting for them etc. which would for all intents and purposes serve as ‘support’ I guess.

    13thfloormonk
    Full Member

    Edit: missed the last two points. I think I’d let the existence of mass start events confuse me a bit, but I can see how they could still be considered ‘individual’ as opposed to riding with a mate.

    Let’s just hope the guy who created the route organises a mass start event sometime soon (assuing he’ll read this thread at some point 😉 ).

    Oh and also have just learned a new word ‘quotidian’, thanks @kilo

    butcher
    Full Member

    Granted, but don’t most ITT routes (in Scotland anyway) have mass starts once a year? e.g. the Cairngorm Loop and the HT550.

    They’re quickly whittled down. Sometimes such events will have a pairs category, but generally speaking you’re otherwise expected to ride alone outside of the first hour or so at the start.

    jameso
    Full Member

    imho riding with a friend is mental support. It can help pacing or your confidence to head out into bad weather etc. Practically you might be able to ride with them in a way that doesn’t affect your effort and not gear share etc but it wouldn’t count as an ITT attempt or known time if you cared about that aspect.

    Mass start events are often still under ITT rules, though it’s fair to say it’s all blurred now between the self-supported fundamentalists who wouldn’t accept a gift of a snickers from someone they might meet and those riding them as a camping sportives in a bunch or those who would accept a sunday roast and a spare room in their home if it was offered.

    In a long event you’ll find someone will be on the same pace as you for a while. You could ride with them a while for a chat if you wanted imo, but there’s a fine line between matched pace and a dual effort. You should politely drop them or let them go ahead soon enough. But if you take ITT rules to the extreme it seems a quite anti-social thing. I think interaction with people is part of the experience and people are often kind and generous to strangers on bikes, contrary to ITT rules.

    smallspinsized
    Free Member

    This sounds the same as ethics of strava segments when people cut corners, use ebikes, draft, open gates, jump lights etc.

    mattsccm
    Free Member

    Surely these are purely for fun so you make your ow rules. Unless of course there is a secret ITT version of CTT that acts as a governing body for such things.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    It’s not clear/defined.

    When Huw set the FKT on the Cairngorms Loop last year, he did it with another rider. They acknowledged that they had “pushed” each other when doing it, likely therefore leading to a faster time. As jameso says, there’s definitely a mental boost and I think there is also a confidence boost. Knowing that someone else is nearby might encourage risk taking* – for instance crossing a fast-flowing river or tackling a pretty gnarly descent. However, as pointed out, Group Starts, like we have for the Cairngorms Loop (next one Saturday 30th April btw), could see many riders grouped together and that’s considered fairly normal.

    Personally, I’d try to avoid it if I was at all interested in a fast time. There will be times I feel good and times I feel crap, times I want to stop and eat, times I want to crack on. I don’t think I could compromise under the pressure of a “racing” environment. However, riding a route with mates and not trying to compete? Hell yes.

    (* there is also an argument that this applies to Spot/other tracking)

    dovebiker
    Full Member

    Easier to explain it in terms of external assistance and internal assistance – the first isn’t allowed although the second is. On my first winter ITT, conditions were really slow and my light battery died literally as I arrived at my bivvy point on the first day. A friend who had already bailed gave me their headtorch and it allowed me to complete the event as I didn’t finish until 2am the next night. Likewise, I’ve shared food and drinks with other participants in other multi-day events.

    butcher
    Full Member

    A friend who had already bailed gave me their headtorch and it allowed me to complete the event as I didn’t finish until 2am the next night. Likewise, I’ve shared food and drinks with other participants in other multi-day events.

    This kind of thing is explicitly disallowed in most of the events I’ve seen.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Alan Goldsmith DNFed himself from his own event after having to borrow a pump.

    The normal rules are listed here

    https://www.selfsupporteduk.net/

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    Rules

    cynic-al
    Full Member

    Good to see Tom Ritchey has a hobby

    crazy-legs
    Full Member

    Would there be any point in recording a time given that the other person will almost certainly impede you from getting round as quick as you could?

    It could be faster if you’re holding gates for each other, following a line choice, drafting, encouraging each other. Or it could be slower if you have to wait for them to fix a mechanical or if they have an accident and you have to help them.

    Superficial
    Free Member

    Surely these are purely for fun so you make your ow rules.

    I too am very surprised that this does not appear to be the consensus.

    I suppose it depends whether OP is talking about an event vs a course. I’m not sure but it seems like they’re planning an assault on the current top time? In which case I can see that perhaps doing it with a friend is not really within the spirit of it.

    For mass-start events, being strict with the rules is fair enough if you’re gunning for a top-5 (category) finish but for everyone else it seems unnecessary. Especially for a 300km event where simply finishing is a massive achievement.

    IANA ITTer

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    The rules are there to allow fair comparison with other completions and that is part of the challenge.

    If folk want to do the route with others, with support, with booked accommodation or on an ebike, that’s also cool and can also be a challenge, just not the same one as those undertaking it by the rules.

    ianpv
    Full Member

    Every ITT mass start I’ve done has had periods where I’ve ridden with other people for a while (inc. HT550). For me it’s been an important and awesome part of the experience, but there has never been any kit sharing or drafting, ‘groups’ are very fluid, and there has never been a plan to ride with someone. But I’m not really at the sharp end, and have always been in it to complete rather than put down a time. If two strong riders had a plan to ride together and get a fast time I don’t think that is in the spirit of the routes.

Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)

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