It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

replaced by a new bread

It’s always a pitta when that happens.

Sorry.

🤣👍

Well spotted, to late to edit 🤷‍♂️

I’m sorry to hear you were upset by the forum, Rachel.

To respond to the various comments on here about whether the community is going downhill or not, in some ways at least, things are improving. Ages ago there was a discussion about gender and sport, and I was in a tiny minority of people standing up for Caster Semenya. A similar thread more recently had more balance, I felt.

Should you then “unread it” and pretend it didn’t happen ?

Obviously you can’t unread it. But yeah, it’s just the opinion of some pillock on the internet. So forget it.
(said the middle-aged-white-bloke)

“Discrimination is not just hate. It’s apathy. It’s indifference. It’s ignorance. It’s power. It’s privilege…”
To paraphrase Scott Woods lists on racism.

@allthegear I am sorry about last night, I also found some of the comments to be ignorant at best and highly inflammatory, bigoted and extremely insensitive at their worst. I understand that @cougar was trying to point that out to @alpin, although the example chosen is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 as are you. I was appalled that the comments were allowed to stand despite being previously challenged by other members of the forum, it took the threat of emailing cycling UK and other organisations to have it removed. Even then I was subjected vilification for pointing it out. I did report as many of alpin’s posts as I could bear reading, with the hope that STW would read through the rest.
It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views, which is sadly a reflection of the society we live in. It is not one I wish to be part of and in challenging it I have been ostracised from my community and by people whom I thought were friends. I joined this forum in the hope of at least learning how to maintain my bike and perhaps meet up with a few of you for a ride. Last night I was close to deleting my account, however there was a few brave souls who were also prepared to challenge and 2 kind people pm’d me.

@allthegear I’m sorry I did not challenge @alpin and others on their views on gender, I opened the thread to see N* and jumped on it. I thought I’d strayed on to 4chan.

It’s obvious that people need clearer guidance on what is and isn’t acceptable on a public forum, this is not your selected friends on fb and is open to everyone. People’s insensitive, ignorant and vile comments not only reflects badly on themselves but on cycling, STW and those who are members of it.
I have decided to email cycling organisations and the Equality and Human Rights Commission to raise awareness and for guidance and support on these issues

To have it suggested that I have upset you Rachel by being trans phobic is not something I can accept.

The thing is, it is not up to you to accept it. It happened. Time to be reflective, not defensive.

The problem with rule #1 is that the people who break it just can’t see what they are doing. You have evidenced this beautifully.

Oh and also – send them a PM if it bugs you that much. Report it, don’t bump the thread and send them a PM (like Woppit did me when I hurt his lickle feelings with a misdirected joke. But yeah, I got the message (literally and figuratively))

How about showing a little respect and stop posting your misogynistic nonsense all the time.

OK, what have I ever said that was ‘misogynistic’? I accept that there is this general view that I am, but refusing to accept that we live in a patriarchy doesn’t make me misogynistic. Similarly, articulating the empirically demonstrated fact that women tend to be more prone to trait neuroticism while men tend to be less agreeable in nature is also pretty far from misogynistic. I know I’ve also been critical of the way misleading statistics have been used to vastly inflate the problems of sexual harrasment and assualt. I’ve never said these things don’t happen, but I have said that I think a political agenda is being waged to artificially inflate these data.

These are the three things I believe have led to my being labelled a ‘misogynist’. If you think these statements constitute misogny then that’s your opinion; I don’t agree with it but I respect your view.

It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views,

“The majority”

Really?

The thing is, it is not up to you to accept it. It happened. Time to be reflective, not defensive.

Except it didn’t; I have not been transphobic under any circumstances.

My closest and most dear friend is trans and I’ve been on a pretty challenging journey supporting her at every point in her transition from male to female.
I’ve spent a good deal of time working with trans individuals to tell their story photographically
I’ve spoken up for trans individuals in many instances and situations including this forum.

So don’t give me this ‘it’s not your lived experience, it’s not up to you’ repetoire; the accusation is just not true.

Time for a new forum somewhere else.

http://mlehworld.com/mleh3/

And your Privacy will be Valued 😉

Except it didn’t; I have not been transphobic under any circumstances.

Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?

Something worth considering.

TJ I think you are probably one of the last people who should be throwing stones.

Geetee – you were named “I have been reduced to tears on multiple occasions reading the comments of some users who seem to be prolific recently, people like rene59, technicallyinept and geetee1972.”

You have caused offence and upset. Accept that you have. Stop denying it and saying you are not transphobic or misogynistic. Whether you think you are or not you have been named as one of the people who have caused upset and distress.

Reflect on why this is and why so many of us call you out on your misogyny

Geetee has (not unreasonably) asked for evidence/examples of transphobia in his postings. If it’s that prolific it should only take a minute or so to find a few examples, and then this can be put to bed.

This is my second post on this thread. I have continued to read since my first and I am trying to decide if the wolf pack hounding of certain individuals, leading to one of them at least feeling they should leave the forum for good, is tantamount to bullying. It certainly seems like it. While they may have offended people they have not broken any laws or any forum rules that I am aware of, and if they had then surely it’s for the mods to deal with and not a group of users with pitchforks?

Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?

No of course not but it is what was suggested and I will not let that suggestion stand. That would be like me accusing TJ of being a despotic right wing facist.

If someone is going to be reduced to tears by my challenging the idea that there is such a thing as ‘patriarchy’ well then seriously that is there problem and I will not apologise for it nor feel remorse for saying it. But we all know that that’s not what reduced the OP to tears.

Sorry, it was a mistake to identify individuals as part of my OP. All it did was cause them to feel the need to (incorrectly) jump on the defence.

For the record, geetee1972, it wasn’t your comments on trans people I was upset by but your continual drip, drip issues with women in general. Can you not see how that might make the small number of women we do get on this forum feel excluded and unwelcome? Really?

The irony that a number of people have said I should report posts I don’t like is high right now, especially as on Mobile Safari the report link doesn’t actually do anything…

Whether or not upset has been caused is not in question; it has. Repeatedly and to the point where it leaves a feeling of “why bother”.

Thank you to those that have reached out personally. I know there are some amazing forum members in here.

Rachel

Sorry, it was a mistake to identify individuals as part of my OP

No it wasn’t. They only would’ve been named later by others.
Those 2 idiots are wrong to make this into a bickering thread, but you weren’t wrong.

Is that the only way a trans person could possibly be offended do you reckon ?

No of course not but it is what was suggested and I will not let that suggestion stand

Not suggested by the op at all actually.
Just “comments” no specifics at all.

The fact that you can’t accept that you have caused offence is pretty sad really, considering you were named specifically.

Edit- crosses posts with the op above.

it took the threat of emailing cycling UK and other organisations to have it removed

Well, no, it took me raising the issue with the rest of the team and asking them to review the thread and make a judgement in the context of my position as a user to have it removed. The owners of STW then intervened and made the call on our behalf. Threats had nothing to do with it, and indeed, most probably have had the opposite effect. People make threats quite often, it very rarely has the result they intended.

It is obvious that the majority of the members who comment on these threads have highly ignorant and bigoted views,

Yeah, no. It’s a very small but very vocal minority. We have a couple of bellends on the forum (who frankly after discussions today are on borrowed time).

especially as on Mobile Safari the report link doesn’t actually do anything

Hopefully if this isn’t already fixed it will be soon. If not you can always fire an email to moderator@, as I said earlier on this(?) thread it’s a useful yardstick as to whether something is problematic or not outside of our own opinions. Every reported post gets reviewed, usually by multiple people.

The decision to close this thread is in the balance right now as it is descending into typical argument. Think wisely about what you post please.

Please know that I really appreciate the difficult job of moderating the issues I am seeing – I am thankful for everything you and the other moderators do, @cougar.

Rachel x

Let’s start the Friday Kylie thread back up. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.
Let’s start a mildly racist jokes thread. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.
Let’s start a mildly homophobic jokes thread. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.
Let’s start a mildly xenophobic joke thread. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.

I’m guessing there is wiggle room between caring whether anyone is offended and exploding into moral outrage so lets just go for it!

Or, as an alternative, how about searching for some empathy in there instead, recognising when wrong has been done and doing something positive about it.

The amount of people jumping on the “it’s your problem deal with it or don’t read it” bandwagon is astonishing. Truly. As I said, I never saw anyone telling Aweeshoe not to be offended.

You have been called out as upsetting and offending people many times but you continue to do it. You have been asked to stop making such contentious( at best) statements but you insist you will continue. Racheal mentioned you by name as one of the people posting stuff that upset her but you continue to insist that you have done nothing wrong and that you will continue to post your viewpoint even when you know it upsets people.

I’m with TJ on this. I cant see what you get from this or how you think this is changing things. It is a bike, music, woodburner, photo and a million other things forum folk like to visit and read. You seem to be ready to drag it down to your personal agenda shouting from your moral high ground through the loadhailer of your prophet JP.
Give it a rest.
You are winning over nobody and destroying at least one persons comfortable place.
And by that a place to relax away from grief, I deliberately didn’t say safe place to avoid diminishing that concept.

I’m neither a bloke, nor straight. I am however, white, middle-aged and work in I.T.

I probably fall under Stonewall’s very wide ‘trans’ umbrella.

If I’d been offered the chance to take puberty blockers to prevent unwanted breasts and the chance to become a boy, would I have gone down that route? Probably. I am not alone in this opinion amongst female friends.

Like many of you, I was born in the 70s where kids clothes were brown, not blue and pink, I grew up in the 80s, where androgenous women and guys with eyeliner in pretty blouses were normal. Children today are under so more pressure these days to conform to gender norms, i.e sex stereotypes.

Girls are encouraged to think they are boys if they reject clothing and activities which are labelled ‘for girls’ (and vice versa for boys).

The number of girls seeking gender reassignment has risen by more than 4,000% in less than a decade. I don’t for one minute believe all these to be cases of gender dysphoria.

I honestly think most of the people here are completely unaware at the vitriol aimed at women by transactivists, and how things ‘that will never happen’ are happening.

Let’s start the Friday Kylie thread back up. Don’t like it? Don’t look at it.

Unfortunately, it’s the existence of the thread that’s the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don’t think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.

Aa a general point, is this not an example of where a PM might be appropriate? I know that other folk have either resolved their differences or agreed to differ by taking it off the forum. It wouldn’t always work, but maybe worth a try?

geetee- I think you’re missing the point. allthegear didn’t just say that posts were transphobic, she also said they were offensive to women. And a lot of yours come across that way. While I understand you believe what you say to be right and just, your views on women and feminism aren’t socially acceptable and do cause offence. I really would recommend what others have- consider whether a bike forum is a suitable place for you to use as a sounding board for your views on feminism and women. If you were this fired up by Sram drivetrains being shite (I can hear mikewsmith twitching somewhere…) then I don’t think anyone would have a problem with it.

Unfortunately, it’s the existence of the thread that’s the problem. If you want a thread ogling women, create a WhatsApp group or something. I don’t think many women want to see a group of boys phwoarring over women on STW.

Oh god no. I bloody hate Whatsapp groups with a passion. I guess this comes down to the increasingly common debate; who is right if one individual’s opinion causes a negative effect in another?

Even if you throw stats, data and any other bunch of references, does that make it any less or any more right?

This will continue to be done to death, especially if people believe strongly in their opinion, so what’s the remedy?

I just don’t get how you don’t see that we are living in a patriarchal society

It now feels like Geetee is waving their pro-trans credentials around to avoid having to talk about the other stuff that they post about women that they’re also being told are being aired in the wrong place and/or at the wrong frequency.

who is right if one individual’s opinion causes a negative effect in another?

Let’s use an analogy. We all like different foods. These are like opinions. In an office, lots of people bring in lots of foods. But some people bring in really smelly foods. Some people like the food and the smell, but most really hate it. So they put up signs saying please be considerate and don’t eat anything really smelly in the office. Reasonable, no?

It now feels like Geetee is waving their pro-trans credentials around to avoid having to talk about the other stuff that they post about women that they’re also being told are being aired in the wrong place and/or at the wrong frequency.

I’ve repeatedly asked anyone to identify specifically what I have said that they regard offensive with regarding to women and feminism. I even offered a summary of the points above that I felt are the ones that triggered much of the backlash I experienced about a year ago. I’m not remotely shy about this.

Can you not see how that might make the small number of women we do get on this forum feel excluded and unwelcome?

It’s not for me to decide how others feel; if you tell me you feel excluded because of my challenges to the orthodoxy then I have to accept that (and I do) but that in itself isn’t a reason to not challenge the ideas.

FWIW the ‘drip drip drip’ experience is one I absolutely can empathise with as it is exactly how it feels to me, being a man, and over the last 18 months being bombarded with messages that aim to reinforce the oppressive nature of my gender and it’s contribution to all the things feminists think are ills done to them.

consider whether a bike forum is a suitable place for you to use as a sounding board for your views on feminism and women.

Well it’s far from the only sounding board, but surely my decision to inlcude it reflects the high regard I hold the forum in?

I just don’t get how you don’t see that we are living in a patriarchal society

Because there’s no evidence for it other than circumstance.

But not its participants

Let’s use an analogy. We all like different foods. These are like opinions. In an office, lots of people bring in lots of foods. But some people bring in really smelly foods. Some people like the food and the smell, but most really hate it. So they put up signs saying please be considerate and don’t eat anything really smelly in the office. Reasonable, no?

Most? Do you mean a few forum members who like to rag on specific individuals? Because that’s what this thread has become now, personal. People should just come out and say it. Call for those individuals to be perma-banned for having an opinion they find distasteful. Just be honest.

Because there’s no evidence for it other than circumstance

Ok, so we have lots of that and we can’t draw the inference?

This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.
It’s not just gender issues either.

Totally. And it’s become a negative loop with more people drifting away as the overall tone of the forum becomes more middle-aged, grumpy and joyless.

Some on this thread don’t recognise that, saying it’s the same it’s always been. They are the ones who’ve given this forum a bad name elsewhere for years by greeting newcomers with negativity and mockery (probably from their own insecurity).

Rachel – I absolutely get why you don’t like it here any mnore. I don’t really either. But the members you’ve named are very atypical and are almost always roundly and forcefully condemned by a vocal majority here. Does that not lessen the hurt?

Actually, Rachel, I suggest you leave. You will only continue to face abuse and offence here. The gains are too small to put up with that crap. Leave them to it until it becomes a few kids shouting in an empty room.