yes islamic music is only narrowly surpassed by their art works 😉

Strict adherence means they do neither

Regardless of one’s personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn’t a Christian country.

Most people in the country see themselves as “Church of England” and church and state are pretty much inseparable given that the Queen is head of the church and our constitutional monarchy is totally bound up with the church.

Looking at it from the other direction, how is the country organised and run? At the lowest level of organisation the country is divided up by Parish

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Er…. i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship… 😉

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

I’m taking a few days off because every other lazy arse bastard is too and they don’t want me banging and crashing round tneir houses. 🙂

If this is a Christian country then a LOT of people haven’t read their bible.

I see nothing particularly christian out there…

Er…. i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship…

Population of England 50 million +
Population f Scotland 5 million +
Population of Wales 3 million +
Population of N Ireland < 2 million

Most people in the country see themselves as “Church of England”

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Have you never heard of Beltain? You do know it’s a subverted pagan festival?

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Pagan mid-winter feast that the christians failed to stamp-out so they rebranded it. Safe to say it has no christian meaning at all.

EDIT: Too slow

Pagan mid-winter feast that the christians failed to stamp-out so they rebranded it. Safe to say it has no christian meaning at all.

It does to most Christians, which is all that matters. Who cares if it wasn’t originally theirs – to most people, even those (the majority?) who understand it was originally a pagan festival and not historically accurate, it’s a celebration of the Christian faith.

I bet the pagans stole it from somebody else.

it’s a celebration of the Christian faith.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Do the other major religions have such a tradition of great music?

The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society.

Certainly any societies which developed as atheist and music-free came to a dead-end, died a death, and left no trace of their existence.

Religion, music, and art, however pointless they might seem to be, are intrinsically linked with the exceptional evolutionary success of human society.

.

Strict adherence means they do neither

There is always a place for such frivolous activities when it comes to praising Allah.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqbBYZlM-q4&feature=related[/video]

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play – I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play – I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

Fluff. It doesn’t detract from the orgy.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Of course it’s a celebration of christian faith.

Now you might not think that it’s the best way to celebrate the christian faith, but that’s a different issue all together. Christianity goes to the very heart of the Christmas celebrations, that’s why it’s celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

wooooooohoooooooo… only four more sleeps til sostice..!! 😀 😀

Pagan scumbag.

that’s why it’s celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

Odd that we were celebrating it before the [alleged] birth of christ.

OK it’s “odd”…..so what ?

It’s still not a Hindu or Muslim religious festival.

Christmas is celebrated in Britain because of Britain’s Christian tradition/heritage.

If you get pissed on the wrong day is irrelevant.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff

Speak for yourself.

Odd that we were celebrating it before the [alleged] birth of christ.

The use of the “we” there reminds me of the Mitchell and Web football sketch.

You’ve got a good memory. That’s fact is it? All of the pre Christian Britains (whoever they might have been, can you trace your ancestors back that far?) were involved in the winter solstice?

rightplacerighttime – Member
An orgy of food, booze and stuff
Speak for yourself.

i think youll find hes speaking for most of the people in this country
93% of whom will not be going to church this xmas
if only 7% can be arsed to go worship on jebus’ birthday then this isnt a christian country

I refer you to the census figures given earlier.

Pagan scumbag.

On Solstice Black Peter will be here with Old Nick to take away the bad children and leave a present and some coal or a Yule log for the good kids..

ernie_lynch – “The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society.”

All societies have also had crime and disease but it doesn’t mean we need them though. The need for religion is a flaw in the human character. It’s time we got over it.

I’m not sure why you think disease is a characteristic of human society, although it’s fair to say that crime in varying degrees is.

However crime is also a widespread characteristic of non-human society – nature is more than happy to allow and encourage theft, murder, violence, coveting your neighbour’s house, bigamy, and so on. Both within species and between species. There is no evidence that it necessarily hinders the success of a species and can never be positive.

Religion in contrast is totally unique to human society. And there is no evidence that it represents, in itself, “a flaw” in the human character. In fact there is plenty to suggest otherwise as human society’s impressive evolutionary success and religion have always gone hand in hand.

Presumably the rules and protocols it lays down has a significant positive effect on organisational issues and helps combat negative ones such as crime and disease.

Otherwise there would not have been the overwhelming prevalence of religion in all societies throughout history, and atheistic societies would have gained the evolutionary upper hand.

Religion and spiritual/mystical feelings are bury deep in our DNA and the human brain has evolved to exploit them for beneficial evolutionary purposes. Don’t place humans on some sort of pedestal, we are at the mercy of evolutionary processes just like any other species. We are really not that special.

Now if you want to reject all existing religions and feel they should be replaced by something “better”, then that’s a whole different issue. But it’s quite wrong to describe religion as having been a “flaw in the human character”, and wrong to believe that you can simply remove it and leave a void in its place – you’ll never do that.

rightplacerighttime – Member

Regardless of one’s personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn’t a Christian country.

Well, no it isn’t, it’s a simple matter of statistics- the overwhelming majority of people aren’t practicing christians. Even if you believe the assorted church’s figures, which are of course Incredible Bull***t, that’s still the case (Church of Scotland records me as a Christian, because I was christened, frinstance- that’s how strong their argument is, they need to enlist random atheists)

What we do have, is an overall moral code heavily influenced by Christianity and by the same underlying morals that influenced Christianity (and most other world religions). I’m not religious but I live what could be considered a fairly christian life. This is not the same as being a christian country but it does explain why Cameron can get away with talking such astonishing s**t.

We are a Christian-compatible country. Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don’t have correct seperation of church and state but hopefully we’ll lose that last dark ages stuff soon.

Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don’t have correct seperation of church and state

Hence we are Christian 🙄

I’m also fairly sure that the CofS / CofE didn’t fill in the religion bit on atheists census forms.

aracer – Member

Hence we are Christian

Er… Would you like to try to explain your strange non-sequitor or are you just going to stick with “X, therefore Y”?

The census as I’m sure you know gives results which can’t be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, “What is your religion” rather than “do you have a religion”

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked “Are you religious” and only 30% said they were. Less than half of the Christians believed Christ was the son of god, which is… challenging.

A similiar one (which I can’t find, rats) asked the “What is your religion” question and got a high-70s result, then asked “Do you believe in a god” and got 25% yes.

Clearly when you get answers like this, you’re asking the wrong question.

– we seem to accept a copy of the bible being given to every child by the Gideons but there would be outcry if someone started doing the same with e.g. the Quoran,

I hand’t heard of this but from the wikipedia page it seems relatively common. Weird.

hear hear northwind. this is a humanist country, and we are about to have a communal ceremony to pick each other up during the darkest day of the dark months. which is why i will be celebrating with food, drink and best of all, friends
ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

That’s kind of judgemental…

@Northwind

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked “Are you religious” and only 30% said they were.

And did you see the question at the top of the thread?

Was it : “Is the UK a Religeous Country?”

You’re the one asking (answering) the wrong question.

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

Do you know any?

I know loads (though I’m not one myself) and they all seem quite nice.

“christmas” is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

TJ, when you say [/quote]missapropriated

do you mean it is wrong?

Do you think that everyone who has ever celebrated Christmas without covering themselves with woad, tucking into a delicious meal of a bit of burnt wild animal and some nettles, washed down with some psychotropic mushroom juice and then spent the night outside in the freezing cold near some big stones is just not getting into the right spirit and failing to fulfil their authentic proper British (although obviously way before anyone even considered the concept of Britain, England or the UK) role?

The census as I’m sure you know gives results which can’t be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, “What is your religion” rather than “do you have a religion”

Yes it did say that.

Right underneath that it said “This Question is Voluntary”

And right underneath that, the first available answer was “No Religion”

So you can’t be suggesting that people felt trapped into putting down Christian or whatever through lack of other options ?

.
If the question was “what type of car do you drive”

And the options were.

No car
Ford
Renault
Etc.
Etc.

Anyone without a car would be well enough catered for wouldn’t they ?

The use of the descriptive “void” or “god shaped hole” applied to a removal of any particular superstition doesn’t match my own experience.

Fortunately for me, the attempt to indoctrinate me into the xtian cult wasn’t made until I was 11, so I was able to work out for myself that it was just a lot of fairy stories, essentially, and reject it completely.

It didn’t feel like an absence of anything, more like a wound that was the result of being attacked, being healed to make me whole again.

“christmas” is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it ! 😀

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Yes, some local traditions have been absorbed into Christianity, but whilst we might enjoy a “yule log”, and it’s part of our Christmas for example, it is not part of the universal Christmas tradition – Christmas itself is not a pagan festival.

And for further examples if you were to attend a mass in Ugandan/Ghanaian you would find significant differences to a mass in English, with chanting and dancing typical of pre-Christian religious celebrations in Uganda/Ghana. It’s still a Christian mass though. Likewise rosary beads are definitely catholic, despite the idea having originally been borrowed from Muslim prayer beads.

And it’s not only religion which borrows from past traditions. The monarchy and the House of Lords were “misappropriated” from the old feudal system, they are now an integral part of bourgeois parliamentary democracy. You can’t claim that the Opening of Parliament by the Queen is a feudal celebration ……..unless you are particularly daft.

BTW, if the pagans had a “midwinter festival” it wouldn’t have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

BTW, if the pagans had a “midwinter festival” it wouldn’t have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

I thought the winter solstice was ‘midwinter’

ernie_lynch – Member

“christmas” is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it !

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Maybe it’s not a prejudice?
Maybe it’s a rational decision to dislike religion based on first hand experience?

However, I agree that the ‘Pagan Christmas’ argument is pointless:
As an atheist I just enjoy Christmas for my own hypocritally selfish reasons.
I love the fact it makes people happy.
Really, what’s not to like?