Is mountain biking still too misogynistic

if someone suggests that as a man you can’t raise a family then it’s absolutely right to reject that behaviour.

Literally no one has done that here.

even where men do pull their weight on practical terms, it tends to be the woman who bears the mental burden of organising the household for things like appointments and food shopping. On average men do 6hrs of domestic stuff a week and women do 16hrs, on top of working full time.

I feel I have to counter that slightly. Appointments and food shopping were more my responsibility than my wife’s – as was cooking. Practical parenting stuff was definitely split 50/50.

I thought Faeries point on free time imbalance was a fair one – I was actually quietly embarrassed that it hadn’t really crossed my mind much while I was reading the thread before then. Everyone’s relationship setup will be a bit different and this may not be the single biggest reason for differences in participants, but it seems reasonable that it would have an effect.

Lustyd, you are completely twisting what I said. Nowhere did I say that men aren’t capable or happy, nor did I suggest that. A stable relationship isn’t necessarily an equal one, but I’m not going to go into relationship dynamics now, if you want to do that then start another thread rather than derail what was a fairly rational discussion.
Although kudos for actively demonstrating how women are discouraged from the trails.

As a (mildly) interesting aside – to me anyway – pulled on an old pair of biking shorts for my run this morning – “harlot” they say on the back!

I think Lustyd has lost the plot somewhere. Can anyone help him find it?

I feel I have to counter that slightly. Appointments and food shopping were more my responsibility than my wife’s – as was cooking. Practical parenting stuff was definitely split 50/50.

He said it tends to be the woman’s responsibility not that it always is. Your life might be different but on the whole he’s right. It’s surprising how many people try to disprove a statement on generally tendencies with a single anecdote. It’s very solipsistic.

Lustyd’s response says far more about his own issues than it contributes to this discussion.

I certainly don’t agree with all comments, but I don’t think lustyd is in the wrong for questioning some fairly questionable claims.

you often hear that women are too slow or precious in relation to mtb.

Absolutely never heard this.

If you watch dh, they still have the pretty blondes handing out awards and interviewing the lads.

Just had a flick through Loic Bruni’s instagram. Lots of podium and champagne spraying photos and not a pretty blonde in sight. Granted I don’t know who delivers the champagne to them, but it’s not tour de france style spraying the podium girls with champagne.
Likewise with the interviews, Wyn isn’t my idea of a pretty blonde. Or are Christina Chapetta’s skills and knowlege being disregarded because she is attractive?

Women downhillers have to have a certain image and qualification (brother/bf) to gain the right to ride, unless you have awesome skills, it is extremely cliquey.

DH is a niche within a niche – it’s cliquey for men and women.
and brother/bf, again not something I’ve come across. I’ve spent enough time at Revs and BMCC to witness the great atmosphere when someone is pushing themselves and hitting big jumps for the first time – regardless of who they are.
I’m presuming you’re getting at Tahnee, Rachel and Tracey (and ignoring the hype around all the others at the top).
Tahnee has a far greater profile than her brother and bf. Other than her Loic, I couldn’t tell you the name of any other pro rider’s partner so not sure that’s a thing.
I think Rachel and Tracey (can’t think of any others) have their own profile and identity, but the Atherton brand means Rachel is linked to her brothers a lot.

Lol, Rona you’re winning the women’s sexual insult bingo. I wonder why mtb in particular has adopted the names in reference to athletes, is it because its popularity rose during lad/ladette culture?
Are we owning the insults and reaffirming them as positive? I’m sure a few were flung at me in the minds of forum users for pointing out that the majority women do most of the housework and childcare. Well done to the men who have raised their hands to say that they do their share, research also suggests that you get recognised for your efforts more often. Your experience isn’t reflective of what “most” relationships are like.
I was rattled after the inflammatory comments, insults, and speculation toward me I feel quite isolated and feel the need to state that I’m being objective, I am not a raging feminist who hates men (nor am I a 13yr old boy in an abusive relationship). I’m not commenting on your individual circumstances nor mine, I accept that every situation is different and I’m attempting to raise awareness for those who don’t have it as good as you or I do. The venomous attacks on me, for not falling in line and saying that I’ll jump on the bandwagon, from men and women on this thread show we have a long way to go in mtb.
Thank you to the guys who have spoken up, I hope my thoughts have been conducive in aiding critical thinking and constructive discussion.

Well, I was going to say we should ignore the crazy but it’s a good illustration of ‘mansplaining’ that was brought up previously:

Woman makes a point and backs it up. Man counters point with insults and belittles them because they feel threatened. Other men jump in with “not all men”. Point is lost and drowned out.

Replace woman and man with black and white, gay and straight, Christian and atheist or whatever you choose. The result is always the same with the minority being ignored in favour of the status quo.

I’m not saying I agree with everything Faeire has said, far from it (more the conclusions than the data tbh) but to throw an argument backed up with actual data back at someone with such a dismissive attitude only serves to prove them right. Disagree by all means but do it through constructive, open debate rather than character assassination.

Well done to the men who have raised their hands to say that they do their share

Really? well done. why are you congratulating me? why should I get recognised for my efforts? That is really condescending.

Is it just me that’s lacking the “taking offence” gene?

Some people can start a fight just by standing in an empty room and looking in a mirror.

Sorry Poah, I’m aiming to be objective and trying to refrain from being emotive, I’m perhaps a bit blunt as people jump to conclusions and attack me personally. I must have misread posts, how does personal experience debunk research into thousands of people? I read anecdotes as that people see themselves and others doing their darned hardest to do the right thing and want recognition for it, and that I should shut up because it is assumed that I’m an extreme feminist, victim, and that I’m speaking from personal experience.
I’ll admit that I am shaken by the vitriol demonstrated on this thread but I hope that I’ve responded considerately.

Hi faerie – I did laugh! – think I’ll be wearing longer jerseys to cover it up. All the best.

I’ll admit that I am shaken by the vitriol demonstrated on this thread

Please don’t be. I think most people get what you are trying to say. There are just 1 or 2 on here who I think would fit right in with the Proud Boys movement and are sort of proving the point of the whole thread.

This whole housework thing, the reason its winding people up (using the highly accurate “I reckon” method) is that men don’t do enough/do more than enough/just get on with it all at the same time and feel defensive about it – but how do you say that without being accused of or using privilege etc?

Individual anecdote is not evidence, I know that, but in our house my wife does more. domestic stuff, keeps track of what the kids (both under 9) are doing in school and sorts out their appointments. She works part-time and is home just after 2.00. I leave the house at 7am and get home at 6.30. So it’s not practical for me to do the school shuttling/appointments unless its the weekend. And even then, loads of the kids things (parties/clubs) are also a social catch up for parents, mostly mums.

Loads of times I offer to sort something out but get told I’ll do it wrong, or it’s not how it should be done. Stupid stuff like letting the kids choose their own outfits – I don’t care what they wear and find it funny if they go out with me looking daft but she worries about what other people think. That’s our personalities, not me pressing her as I’m a bloke. I’m northern, she’s from the home counties.

I let her know I’ve done stuff in the house etc but worry that it looks like I’m expecting praise – I’m not, I’m being practical and communicating that one task is taken care of, don’t go and do it yourself anyway. Also there’s an expectation that I WANT to do something, rather than need to. I don’t care if the house is untidy (but clean) but she wants me to care – I put stuff away etc as I know it winds her up but I probably wouldn’t if I was on my own.

I don’t do as much domestic stuff as I’m out more (at work). Before kids it was much more evenly spread as we’d get home similar time, I did more cooking, went to the supermarket together, and so on. Our situation changed.

I feel guilty about it but its the practical solution. So when I see stuff about women shouldering the burden it annoys me as I’m constantly thinking I should do more, but can’t. I don’t expect my partner to do anything, but we have to make it work. I don’t think I’m unique here.

It’s not fair that women get the burden (or take it on) but I’m pretty sure loads of blokes aren’t sitting there thinking women should, so men get defensive when challenged about it; as an individual they’re not making or expecting women to do anything. You shouldn’t shut up faerie, but

how does personal experience debunk research into thousands of people?

well, that’s sort of what I’m trying to express. I dunno, it’s all communication and nuance, and contradictions. Is MTB misogynistic, probably; is it full of misogynists, probably not. Is it a reflection of wider society, I guess, but as a middle-class middle-aged bloke I’m not misogynistic and get all hurt when it’s suggested I (as in men in general) am. But blokes are.

Well, that really clears it up, doesn’t it.

Oh, and faerie – I think what you’re doing is trying to make things better for people so please do keep doing it, I’ll try and be a big boy and not take it personally.

As for the OP, some people like pictures of bodies, boobs and boners. That’s not sexist, it’s just a picture and the offence is imaginary. Throughout history the human body and its various parts have featured in art on stone walls, caves, tattoos, canvas and bike parts. Making a penis out of marble in Italy is no different, yet it draws the crowds every summer because it’s “art”.

I used to think like this when I was younger, but then I really started to think about the issues and tried to understand things from other people’s points of view rather than simply dismissing them. Humanity is not rational, it’s all about how people feel, after all.

Objectively you are right – a picture of boobs is just a reflection of what many men like, and is no different to a picture of a hunky man. But in reality, it IS different because of history and gender dynamics.

Another example – theoretically the word **** is no different from the word Brit, it’s just an abbreviation of someone’s place of origin. But in reality it IS very different indeed.

Anyway back on topic – is MTBing more or less misogynistic than the rest of society?

There have been some really interesting contributions from women on this thread; if one if those raises the possibility that issues outside mountain biking can affect who participates, that is surely helpful in moving the discussion along. I don’t think it’s a reason to see it as a personal slight any more than discussing the price of bikes today, which could be equally divisive in how people balance their lives outside actually riding.

I understand why someone would feel a bit shaken by the attitude of blokes (okay, bloke) appearing in these discussions as self-appointed union reps for the rights of men though, spouting off about how badly treated we are. It’s annoying that they seem to represent themselves as spokesmen.

Anyway back on topic – is MTBing more or less misogynistic than the rest of society?

As I said at the start, it is probably about the same as it is part of society. How we know how many people are put off by that I don’t know. I am put off my lads/boys club mentality and I would not mix with that type of group. Doesn’t matter to me as I just ride on my own and get on with it and enjoy it, which is what anyone coudl do if the main point of interest is actually riding a bike.

I’ve not bothered to read all of the thread because this is the typical thread that I avoid on STW. I am female and I ride avidly and I enjoy it, I really couldn’t give a rats ass what goes on around supporting a race, whether people are scantily clad in magazines, whether it’s muddy or whether I’m going to get grief for being perceived as slow because that perception won’t last long. However, I do think that a forum that I consider as 90% men shouldn’t really bother to discuss in a thread about whether a sport is too misognistic because frankly it doesn’t apply to any of you! Can you not just leave a topic that applies to women, up to women to discuss and decide about?!

Can you not just leave a topic that applies to women, up to women to discuss and decide about?!

No.

Slightly fuller answer, I’m a straight white bloke, and I’ve changed my mind about racism, gender identity, sexuality and loads of stuff since the 80’s, mostly due to talking about it, discussing it and thinking how I’ve (usually) got things wrong. And how the ideas I was bought up with don’t fit with the way society is and should be.

Sorry.

However, I do think that a forum that I consider as 90% men shouldn’t really bother to discuss in a thread about whether a sport is too misognistic because frankly it doesn’t apply to any of you! Can you not just leave a topic that applies to women, up to women to discuss and decide about?!

lol

Can you not just leave a topic that applies to women

Does misogyny only apply to women then?

However, I do think that a forum that I consider as 90% men shouldn’t really bother to discuss in a thread about whether a sport is too misognistic because frankly it doesn’t apply to any of you!

Without wishing to appear a mansplainer, I would still like to disagree – I think men need threads on misogyny so that they can be challenged, and challenge themselves.

I agree Molgrips, but women equally need such threads to challenge their beliefs and assumptions, and debating between the sexes is probably key to avoid an echo chamber where someone for some reason thinks it would be more serious for the household if a woman broke a leg cycling than a man. That’s clearly not the case regardless of roles in the home, and getting that message through will only serve to give women confidence to get out and do these things.

“Can you not just leave a topic that applies to women, up to women to discuss and decide about?!”

I’m English, white, middle class, male, straight, had a fortunate upbringing, a good education and am relatively financially comfortable. But that doesn’t stop me being concerned about how the world is for people who aren’t, I’m well aware how so much is prejudiced in ways that benefit people like me. And that makes me angry, especially when I see how little diversity there is amongst the wealthy and powerful. And closer to home I have two daughters and I’d like to help make the world a bit better for them.

The posting on this forum always feels even more male dominated than MTBing already is. I don’t think we men should wait for the tiny proportion of women on here to bring up these issues – they need to be talked about, change needs to happen. Staying silent and accepting the status quo doesn’t help anyone.

As a white man in the UK, racism doesn’t apply to me so luckily I now don’t have to bother caring about it, discussing it, trying to make it better etc,. Good grief.