Ignorant lorries : Ignorant cyclists…police campaign this morning

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  • Ignorant lorries : Ignorant cyclists…police campaign this morning
  • Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    7/15 left deaths from left turning lorries eh?

    I dont know the stats, but I'd wager more than 50% are women, or at least certainly more are women than as a proportion of the general riding population in London. (The "dont mind me, Ill just tuck into this gutter and keep out of your way" mindset, rather than taking a slightly more aggressive road position that men are more likely to take)

    EDIT: D'Oh! just read dmillers link. Pretty conclusive then IMO.

    EDIT2: Also, rather than just point the finger at women, I should also add that railings on corners should be removed from the city – at the very least give a cyclist somewhere to escape too if they've got themselves in a pickle.

    I saw them doing the lorry thing in Hyde Park last summer. Seemed a good idea to teach some of the more "amateur" cyclists about road positioning and moving safely with traffic.

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    Quite a few years ago now a clubmate of mine was killed by a lorry turning into him up near Victoria.
    We used to share part of the same commute route, I'd be going up to Waterloo, he'd turn off at Camberwell Green. In that instance the lorry driver was successfully prosecuted for causing death by dangerous driving.

    As you say, well done Met Police and TfL. I assume that CTC or similar have a hand in this too?

    samuri
    Member

    It is quite an interesting approach, what are they doing to educate lorry drivers? The only close experience I have of lorry/cyclist death is when a guy got killed at the top of our road when he got crushed against some railings by a lorry turning left. He was a policeman on his way into work, he cycled the route every day and was a cycling policeman also, a very experienced cyclist and yet by the media accounts he was killed through a naive error.

    Bollocks! He was killed because the lorry overtook him and then turned left right in front of him which in my personal experience is the most likely cause of a vehicle/cyclist interface. It will happen at least 2 or 3 times on every single road ride I do (overtaking and then immediately turning left).

    They should be targetting cyclists yes but without also targetting crap lorry drivers they can do one.

    Premier Icon perks
    Subscriber

    actually – they are doing both – the leaflet I was given was aimed at both – it was a "two sides of the story" thing…really very good.

    having said that, I'd like to personally see the lorry drivers reaction to it…

    dmiller
    Member

    having said that, I'd like to personally see the lorry drivers reaction to it…

    I think with all drivers you get three groups.
    1. Very good drivers that watch for cyclists and pay attention. I would say this is the majority of lorry drivers I meet on my commute in Glasgow / have ever spoken to in the pub.
    2. Those who just don't really understand whats going on but would benefit from education.
    3. Those who just don't care.

    I would say that your leaflet is aimed at group 2. However I wouldn't think there would be that many – I don't think a HGV license is easy to get. I would think that they have all been taught when they got your license to drive that bit better than normal drivers and shouldn't really be in group 2.

    I would say that educating cyclists to never ever ever ever ever ever go down the left hand side of a lorry, bus, bin lorry etc is more useful. If a lorry ever places you on its left hand side slow down and pop out behind it.

    Does it matter if they are in the wrong when they hit you? Surely we have a duty to protect ourselves and act in the safest manner we can on the road.

    I would suggest this is the message behind the leaflet – "Lorries? Stay the f*ck away from the left hand side!"

    For those of you have had friends or colleagues or club mates injured / killed by lorries I don't mean to imply they have done anything wrong – sometimes you just cant save yourself in the face of bad driving. But if their advice saves one novice cyclist then its worth the leafleting and sitting in the lorry cab for that!

    Not that I feel strongly on this of course… 😳

    David.

    samuri
    Member

    Yeah, you're spot on that perhaps cyclist education is going to save more lives that driver education but……

    If a lorry ever places you on its left hand side slow down and pop out behind it.

    easier said than done. As I mentioned, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's *very* common to be passed by a car/lorry/bus/van which then immediately turns left, and I mean soon enough to cause an impact. I've had people pull along side me and *then* turn left, while they're next to me. They've had to move out to come alongside me so they know I'm there. It's totally **** bizarre. I just wish I had a gun. BANG!

    BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!!!!!

    BANG!

    You might be able to tell I feel quite strongly about this too.

    Premier Icon perks
    Subscriber

    Interesting experience on the Mall in London this morning. Th police were pulling cyclists over and letting them sit in the cab of a small/medium sized brand new lorry…

    I had the opportunity and took it – wow…serious lack of vision even in the most modern cab with all the new mirrors. I'm not saying this out of some "do gooder" turn, just it really surprised me.

    Not that I actually pass on the left of lorries – I thought it was a really worthwhile thing to be doing – at least they are taking cycle deaths seriously.

    Apparently 7 out of the 15 bike deaths this year were lorry turning left deaths!!!

    Also – they are definitely trying to clamp down on red light jumpers – 1000 tickets issued so far this year.

    well done the met/TFL, good effort…

    dmiller
    Member

    Yeah I feel you there Samuri.

    Sometimes on my commute I see people doing very stupid things like trying to get back out in front of a lorry that's over taken them. Or even worse is holding position on the side of it as they don't want to loose any speed. This kind of thing wont end well for them every day.

    I've had people pull along side me and *then* turn left, while they're next to me. They've had to move out to come alongside me so they know I'm there. It's totally **** bizarre.

    This one gets right on my tits and is quite common. I think the issue for me is I am a bit of a fat lad (15 stone!) and people cant believe that I am actually doing 20 to 25 mph and just really screw up the over taking maneuver thinking that I am doing about 10 mph or less.

    I have been known to use the toe studs on my shoes to re-educate drivers about my position when they try and turn through me. One even called the police on me for damaging his car (I put holes in two door panels and the back side panel bit of it before he noticed I was there). The police man turned up, listened to both sides of the story, told the driver it would have done more damage to his car if he had run me over. Once the driver had gone he did take me aside and suggest that perhaps I had gotten carried away booting the side of the guys car. He may have been right!

    So yeah – I know that not everything can be avoided by dropping back and getting out the way, and sometimes you just need to make the best of a bad situation thats not of your control, but that doesn't mean that best practice isn't to get the hell out of the way every time you can.

    **EDIT**
    Wow – I'm in a ranting mood today. Sorry!

    Smee
    Member

    Cycle in the middle of the lane and force the drivers to treat you like you are a car – its the only way.

    woffle
    Member

    what he (samurai) ^^ said – it's all very well not skipping down the left-hand side of buses / lorries etc at lights but pretty much every close shave I've had on my London commute has been lorries / vans overtaking and then turning left across my path.

    Had that two days ago – exactly the same thing – chewing along at 20mph through the green lights at a cross roads, had to slam on the brakes when a white newspaper delivery van overtook and then hung a left. What really rubbed it in was the shout of "You cycling CAAAANNNNTT" and finger flipped out the window as he chuckled off down the road.

    I have been known to use the toe studs on my shoes to re-educate drivers about my position when they try and turn through me.

    Maybe I need to fit my sidi toe studs back on then!

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    Cycle in the middle of the lane and force the drivers to treat you like you are a car – its the only way.

    Started riding like this on the road now, especially at junctions and tighter spots, middle of road, maintain eye contact with drivers almost daring them to do something stupid. I get a bit of "gesturing" and horn, but I'd rather not be dead…

    Premier Icon crazy-legs
    Subscriber

    I would suggest this is the message behind the leaflet – "Lorries? Stay the f*ck away from the left hand side!"

    A lot of lorries now have signs on the back saying more or less that along with signs like "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you!"
    Bendy buses have a sign telling you that they're 18m long. When they were first introduced a lot of accidents happened because people (cyclists and drivers) simply didn't realise that they are VERY long.

    Although a lot of the accidents were also down to the fact that drivers of bendy buses tend to be morons.

    CaptJon
    Member

    Eye contact is great for ensuring drivers reflect on what they were about to do.

    29erKeith
    Member

    Eye contact is great but some drivers are just ****!

    Last night hgv pulled out of a side road on my left just in front of me
    He clearly saw me but pulled out anyway and just shouted the 'I pay for road tax' Bollox at me

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Just rode past the guys on the Mall. If anyone's interested, it looks like Eddie Stobart has lent a nice shiny green tractor unit to play in now as well! 🙂

    I reckon they should stop all female cyclists that are going past and anyone with a rusty chain or improbably angled handlebars 😉

    antigee
    Member

    personally i choose to not pass lorries or vans on the inside but when i passed my test my early driving experience was in a van and a 3 tonne truck and think this made me aware that all sorts of stuff goes on you can;t see

    not an urban experience but was down in the South West last week with a group of mates – all regular road riders (not "roadies") who chose to undertake a long tailback in a town – no big trucks but plenty of vans / light trucks with turnings and parked cars – had to wait for me and when asked about the delay I said I'd have chosen to ride down the outside
    interestingly myself and the other most experienced guy were the only one that didn't get squeezed into the hedge on the narrow country lanes over a 3 day ride because we would take a position a metre or so out – article in Sunday Times this week "Near-death encounters have put me right off my bike" mixes up aggressive riding and taking assertive position on road
    good iniaitive by Police

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Funny – the "overtake, turn left" thing nearly happened to me this morning. It was someone who works in the same dept, once I found out his name, I emailed him.

    Me: Hi, Just wondered – would you have turned left in front of that cyclist this morning if the traffic lights hadn’t stopped you?
    Cheers, D

    Him: Of course not, why?

    Me: That’s cool then. Just appeared that way from the way you accelerated to get in front of me.

    Him: No you were ok, no danger of being run over or having to take avoiding action this time.

    My car revs quite high so it may have seemed like I was going faster than I was.

    Cheers,

    Innocence is a wonderful thing 😉

    tails
    Member

    Cycle in the middle of the lane and force the drivers to treat you like you are a car – its the only way.

    FACT

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    tails – Member

    Cycle in the middle of the lane and force the drivers to treat you like you are a car – its the only way.

    FACT

    Pointless post. Totally depends on WHERE.

    Smee
    Member

    Why exactly would cycling in an assertive road position be pointless?

    pennine
    Member

    A few comments from truck drivers about cyclists ➡

    here

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Trolling Zoo Fighter – Member
    Why exactly would cycling in an assertive road position be pointless?

    I guess that's aimed at me?
    Of course its not pointless. Saying that's what you should do is.
    It entirely depends on WHERE. Roads aren't all the same. You just can't generalise about how you should ride on the roads.

    bassspine
    Member

    penine; it's just like STW over there!

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    CaptJohn"Eye contact is great for ensuring drivers reflect on what they were about to do."

    Ironically, I had a woman pull out on me from a junction (I was on the motorbike) despite having totally locked on eye contact all the way from before she moved, to after I hit her car in the passenger side door. She said "I couldn't understand why you were staring at me, it confused me, so I pulled out". She didn't really seem to get that "I was confused" isn't a get-out-of-jail card, if I'd been on a less good bike or going at the speed limit, or paying just a tiny bit less attention, I'd have been taking a ride in an ambulance. So, don't assume too much based on eyecontact!

    Trolling Zoo Fighter- "Why exactly would cycling in an assertive road position be pointless? "

    In circumstances where it's likely to inspire a driver to do something stupid and unproductive- tailgating, roadraging, poor overtakes.

    Premier Icon Bunnyhop
    Subscriber

    Stoner you are so right about the Women riders being less aggressive when out on the road.
    I am one of the riders that tend to place myself more into the centre. This though has in the past caused male drivers to take out their road rage on me. I must be a soft target being small.
    It's amazing that holding up someone in a car for a few seconds can make them actually get out of their car to hit you, surely this would hold them up for minutes, hours even if the police had to be called.
    I had to change my commute, which added on an extra half a mile due to the abuse I used to get on one particular narrow road.
    Sigh.
    I still think a part of the driving test should involve riding a bike down a fairly busy road. Then the driver would see our side of things.

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