mikewsmith

And we can make an assessment of it, I’d say it’s paper thin

Yes, I see it all clearly now.

The thickness, softness and width of your rebuttal is like 21st century toilet paper.

Your counterargument has defeated me with its clarity and paper based references.

I bow to your superior skills.

I’m assuming all this of course, as you made no actual argument of any kind. But I’m sure your certainty that such an argument exists is all the proof I need to change my mind.

Thanks for your input I guess. 🙂

I have massive respect for those that work in the Prison Service.

A thankless task, I can not think of one that’s pretty much in the same league.

I get the impression that interacting with inmates, some of whom want to inflict violent harm against you just for wearing a uniform and walking upright.

How you control yourself in a situation like that, every bloody day, is frankly astonishing.

Whilst your moral compass may be for the social good, counter that with sometimes you must wish both physical harm and castration be bestowed upon some inmates.

Tough Job Man.

I’m assuming all this of course, as you made no actual argument of any kind. But I’m sure your certainty that such an argument exists is all the proof I need to change my mind.

I’ve made a number of points about the evidence, effectiveness and more throughout this thread, you are welcome to read them. However it’s in the bible is a great and obvious moral argument.

he’d been a bastard to his wife/partner & kids so social services had taken away his access rights. He was of course, annoyed by this & said he was going to kill himself.

let him, I say. His choice, doesn’t sound mentally unstable. Waste of resources checking on him…

Not a philosopher, but from my simplistic point of view, its the golden rule. The (historically late) christian version being  “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”

So if I murdered a child, what do I think would be a fitting punishment for me?

Are you suggesting that this supersedes “Thou shalt not kill?”. If so, that would be a spectacular bit of cherry picking.

@nickc has it, and really that should be an end of the discussion. If it’s wrong to kill, it’s wrong to kill, and killing people to show them how wrong it is makes absolutely no sense.

I think we should put it to a referendum. That seemed to go well last time. The death sentence is one of the strongest arguments for constitutional democracy. Just wish they’d have stuck to that last time, rather than expect MP’s to vote overwhelmingly against their consciences.

And for the record, I’d do everything I could to oppose it. Of course the notion that we would execute innocents would be just cast aside as “project fear”.

Assuming that the execution of innocent citizens is itself murder, who would we execute for their deaths? The executioner, the judiciary, the MPs who supported the legislation or the folk that voted for it in a referendum?

Mikewsnith

You’ve made many points (pretty much all of which I would agree with) but none about the morality of the death penalty.

I’m not arguing for it being useful, advisable, effective, a deterrent to others. I’m just saying it can be justified morally.

That idea (the golden rule) is not based on the bible (which I would consider a poor and self contradictory resource for any point of view, except obviously when it comes to banning the eating of shellfish). Thats just (probably) the most familiar example for people in 21C UK. See wikipedia.

It might not be a moral argument that you like or respect, but it is a moral argument that exists.

Unlike yours.

onewheelgood

Are you suggesting that this supersedes “Thou shalt not kill?”. If so, that would be a spectacular bit of cherry picking.

I’m not defending the bible and its innocent slaughtering and virgin raping propensities in any way shape or form, but in this case that particular bit translates better as “Thou shalt not murder” (which is different from “killing”).

It would be a hard argument for Jeebus himself to make that it literally meant “Thou shalt not kill” bearing in mind what the israelites did to the people who inhabited the promised land shortly (ish) after reading it for the first time (see reference above to slaughter and rape of virgins).

2-3000 years ago which is why we shouldn’t really be basing modern laws o

Plus quite a few of the ancient laws were fairly flexible. If you coughed up some cash most of the time that was enough. Or if the criminal wasnt available then punishing one of their families was fine.

Interesting link here http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-death-penalty-moral

Interesting in that the voting is 51%/49% – spookily close to a certain referendum in UK.

The vast majority of those countries that still have the death penalty are backward holes ruled by fascists and inbreds, why would we want to associate with them?

Oh…

I have massive respect for those that work in the Prison Service.

A thankless task, I can not think of one that’s pretty much in the same league.

I get the impression that interacting with inmates, some of whom want to inflict violent harm against you just for wearing a uniform and walking upright.

Yeah but member when the papers told us they are holiday camps! Job must be a doddle as all the inmates have Playstations to keep them quiet, don’t they?

Would love to see Dacre and his mates swapping Tuscany for Wormwood Scrubs. Wonder if they would still call it a holiday camp after getting a real taste. What about the food review, the slop du jour was enhanced by a flem jus dispensed by a laughing inmate.

However it’s in the bible is a great and obvious moral argument.

Is it?

Just seen this post shared on facebook :

Update it is great sadness that my auntie who was attacked on Saturday has now died. Thank you for all the support from everyone.
URGENT APPEAL

Did anyone see <span class=”text_exposed_show”>a young male acting suspiciously in a white car last night in or near LOOP ROAD OLD WOKING at around 6PM. We don’t have anymore description at this time. He went to my aunties house who’s in her late 80s asking for a drink of water then attacked her taking her hand bag. She was rushed to A&E with a lot of facial damage. I know it’s a long shot. Any info phone the police</span>

There’s one death sentence I would sanction…

@Bikebouy. It IS a tough job pal, mentally draining & physically demanding. I’m fortunately now out of it but I’d rather be still in it if it could change my wife’s circumstances. (bowel cancer episode) Hey Ho.

Anyway…..

Yeah but member when the papers told us they are holiday camps! Job must be a doddle as all the inmates have Playstations to keep them quiet, don’t they?

Would love to see Dacre and his mates swapping Tuscany for Wormwood Scrubs. Wonder if they would still call it a holiday camp after getting a real taste. What about the food review, the slop du jour was enhanced by a flem jus dispensed by a laughing inmate.

Only prisoners on ‘enhanced incentive earned privelages’ can have Playstations, & only PS 2’s cos 3’s have a USB port.

Gobbing in food does happen very very occasionally but is punishable by letting other cons know who did it. It’s called ‘self policing’.

Again, back to the death penalty….

@ esselgruntfuttock – Pffftt, details ain’t nobody got time for that 😉

@Chester, yep I know, people only want facts, not the truth.

So, I’m still a ‘yes’ voter on the death penalty.

People want binary answers and single sentence explanations. **** the truth.

Its really simple

In society we have set of rules which are there to keep us safe.

To particiapte in this society members must abide by those rules.

If I choose to ignore societies rules then I forfiet my right to live in that society.

So capital punishment does have a place where guilt can not be in doubt.

ON th flip side it costs £45K per year to keep people locked up – so cages are a great idea.

Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.

Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.

Not much is a deterrent, though I’d question why you want to bring Islamist and terror into this – got some facts to back that up?

Perhaps you might be coming around to working out that we need to look hard at the causes of crime and the ways we rehabilitate and help people lead a more productive life once they have gone wrong

ON th flip side it costs £45K per year to keep people locked up – so cages are a great idea.

Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.

Maybe we should make them take out a student loan to pay for it.

Turnerguy. Are you advocating the death penalty based on a couple of sentences on Facebook by the relative of a deceased victim. This is an appeal for witnesses, no suspect in custody as of yet, no real FACTS of the crime, and no trial??!! Any sensible person would need to have a lot more information at their disposal to make any reasoned judgement.

Oh well, when the death sentence is back, there’ll be no trial by jury. Social media has it covered.

Wrong thread

They’re not going to be hung are they?

Gah, it’s gone.

I’ve just caught up with this thread, and I’d like to respond to a comment from a couple of pages back.

This surprised me a little, so I checked back.  Precisely one person has used the word “idiot” in the entire thread (other than matt just there).  That was me, and I was referring to society as a whole (and I was not being nasty, it’s true – society demonstrably has a fair share of idiots).

A people’s vote would be wrong because, as per the above, there are too many idiots.  And in any case, it’s not the public’s decision to make, as I said before.  An actual democratic vote – ie, by MPs in parliament, as opposed to the brexit “democracy” of mob rule – would be an entirely different argument.  Not immediately seeing how this is being “nasty” either.

As you were, carry on.

Only prisoners on ‘enhanced incentive earned privelages’ can have Playstations, & only PS 2’s cos 3’s have a USB port.

What’s the issue with having a USB port, out of interest?  People smuggling in pendrives for, what, secret messages?  Grot?

This is an appeal for witnesses, no suspect in custody as of yet, no real FACTS of the crime, and no trial??!!

no facts of the crime, so you are suggesting that this elderly lady attacked the young man and got the facial injuries out of self-defence?

but if it was shown that the young man callously beat the old lady, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.

, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.

You have an opinion. Good for you.What is his mentality?

What does killing him do?

“where guilt can not be in doubt.”

so we are back to Derek Bentley then

I’m 100% against the death penalty. Seems completely obvious to me that if killing is wrong then killing the perpetrator is equally wrong. What would be next, raping rapists FFS?

You jest, but I don’t doubt that many people would agree with that too.

I know they would it’s horribly depressing. We don’t kill people at our mercy because otherwise we’re as bad as them, no matter how humane or what we choose to call it. The rape thing is a useful counter. Many people seem perfectly happy (they say) to pull a trigger, throw a lever, flick a switch but far fewer would be able to gain an erection and rape an inmate in the name of “justice” and in my mind it’s exactly the same principle. Although quite a few seem happy to sentence rapists to death too, in fact it’s quite surprising how many crimes some people feel should be punishable by death.

in fact it’s quite surprising how many crimes some people feel should be punishable by death.

Disagreeing with brexit seems to be a common one at the moment.

no facts of the crime, so you are suggesting that this elderly lady attacked the young man and got the facial injuries out of self-defence?

but if it was shown that the young man callously beat the old lady, then I fail to see what justification there is for keeping someone with that mentality around.

Turnerguy. There are endless possibilities. The elderly lady may have died from something unrelated to the incident. Have you thought of that? She could have had terminal cancer for all you know. Based on the description, the assailant could be a juvenile. This is huge in my book. Would you put a 15 year old to death? The assailant may have snatched a bag and the lady fallen against a table. The assailant may have a serious mental health issue. I am glad you are not on a death row jury. I bet games of Cluedo are a barrel of laughs in your house.

There are endless possibilities.

However it would make trails a lot simpler if we just shot them at the start.

Its really simple

I agree, it is!  Please go on….

In society we have set of rules which are there to keep us safe.

Yes, with you so far

To particiapte in this society members must abide by those rules.

If I choose to ignore societies rules then I forfiet my right to live in that society.

Still with you….

So capital punishment does have a place where guilt can not be in doubt.

What?  How did you suddenly jump to that?  Locking somebody in prison achieves exactly the same thing, without the downsides to executing people.

Prison is not a deterrent – its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.

whut?

Prison is not a deterrent

Perhaps not, but then capital punishment doesn’t appear to be a deterrent either judging by lots of data from the US.

Admittedly the re-offending rate is pretty low, however successful appeals in the event of a wrongful verdict are quite tricky too.

its a criminal/Islamist university or terror and crime.

I’ve been to that one, although they just called it “The University of Paisley” when I was there.

<span style=”display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: ‘Open Sans’; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;”>we need to look hard at the causes of crime and the ways we rehabilitate and help people lead a more productive life once they have gone wrong</span>

That sounds far too difficult.  Easier just to write them off forever or apparently just murder them so we don’t even have to give it any thought.

The rape thing is a useful counter. Many people seem perfectly happy (they say) to pull a trigger, throw a lever, flick a switch but far fewer would be able to gain an erection and rape an inmate in the name of “justice” and in my mind it’s exactly the same 

So by your peculiar logic what punishment would I be given if I abducted somebody and kept them locked in a cage for a year ?