"I asked God to help me"

highly unlikely that the current versions of any Bible or other religious script that has been through multiple translations and edits should be taken at face value.

Yes, I’ve always understood the classical religious texts as a starting point for (theological) discussion rather than a verbatim account of anything.

Ok – so you simply believe the bits that are convenient to believe in.

So infact to you the bible is not the word of God. So if some of it is not to be believed then how do you decide which bits to believe? the bits you like? I think I shall call myself a Christian but ignore the ten commandments. they are too inconvenient.

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

You will find that the Nazis killed plenty of homosexuals without subscribing to the old Abrahamic religions.

Hence the simple illustration of 40 days and nights. To a modern reader (ok perhaps not Theresa April) that may mean 40 calendar days. To a Jewish reader it can equally mean merely a long time.

Yep. Numbers were often used to convey a meaning rather than being exact numbers.

Are homosexuals and abomination to be killed?

Gone off topic a bit there I think.

Who is “We” exactly? Are you all typing from the same keyboard?

“We” being “people who think that the BBT is the best explanation we have currently.”

The big bang theory implies that Matter, Space and Time was suddenly created.

Good grief man. No, it doesn’t. It simply doesn’t. I don’t know how I can be any clearer. The failure to understand this basic concept is yours, not mine. You might not agree with it, that’s fine, but continually asserting something that simply isn’t true makes you look like either a troll or a fool.

Gone off topic a bit there I think.

Conveniently avoids the question, too.

badnewz, what are your views on homosexuality?

Why do you persist with this TJ – ask a vicar if it’s that important to you? As I said before, never a good idea to assume what other people believe or don’t believe. It “can” make one look a little silly.

fwiw I have made my views on homosexuality known in the past and from what I remember they were very close to yours. So again, why he question?

Spin – the point being that is in the bible. So it illustrates the point that most people claiming to be Christians infact pick and chose which bits of the bible to believe in.

The question then is why believe any of it if you can chose to disbelieve some of it.

It shows the fundamental hypocrisy here

The big bang theory implies that Matter, Space and Time was suddenly created

I thought that the dimensions of space and time did suddenly come into existence at that point.

Runs off to check books again…

Teamhurtmore – because your pick and mix approach to the truthfulness of the bible and to which bits of it to follow shows the massive hypocrisy inherent in your position.

You claim to be rational and to have approached your religion with critical thinking – I am pointing out the inherent irrationality of your stance.

So – from what you said here you chose to only believe some parts of the bible. How do you decide which parts to believe?

Ok – so you simply believe the bits that are convenient to believe in.

No, (if you mean me) – I have read most of the major religious texts in detail and in several translations.
I have used them to think more deeply about the nature of life, the question of man’s existence, the possibility of an eternal “soul” and how this relates to my own life.

All religious texts represent (to me) a significant part of man’s social, intellectual and philosophical development – what any individual may gain from them is matter for them to decide using whatever values, opinions and insights they have.

I don’t comment on what other people choose to bring to their lives from these works, but respect their decisions and right to choose their own beliefs and values.

badnewz, what are your views on homosexuality?

Well, as I said before I went to Oxford. We practically invented it there, along with the Greeks.

It is not an issue for me – although in other respects I am a social conservative. I came from a relatively poor background, and saw the damage which the liberal and selfish ideologies from the 1960s did to those communities, particularly destroying the family unit.

hilldodger not you – aimed at teamhurtmore.

In many ways i’m sorry to play this game but badnewz, the Jewish people are an obscure people in one location and Jesus only revealed himself to them . Why for the bulk of human history did god hide his light from the peoples of Asia Australia Europe Africa the Americas etc . Surely an all knowing all powerfull all present divinity would be globally present not just a secret for some sheep farmers and ex slaves in the middle east to slowly spread .

TJ pls tell me what my religion is? I would be interested to know especially as I am supposed to be a hypocrite (little clue, I have never read the whole Bible or the Koran or the Bhagvad Gita, but have read parts of all of them.) I have however been very interested to learn from an indoctrinated minor about how these texts can be interpreted very differently though. Always good to debate things except with the narrow minded

Edit: interesting comments hill dodger sounds like we have common thoughts

TandemJeremy – Member
hilldodger not you…

:phew: anyway surely pick’n’mix died out with the demise of Woolworths 😀

In many ways i’m sorry to play this game but badnewz, the Jewish people are an obscure people in one location and Jesus only revealed himself to them . Why for the bulk of human history did god hide his light from the peoples of Asia Australia Europe Africa the Americas etc . Surely an all knowing all powerfull all present divinity would be globally present not just a secret for some sheep farmers and ex slaves in the middle east to slowly spread .

Yes, I don’t think He did. I subscribe to the one light, many lamps concept. The reason we know so much about God from the Jewish tradition is because they were an advanced culture, very literate.

Teamhurtmore – you claimed to be a Christian last week did you not?

500

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). Nice to be called a hypocrite though.

( Anyway don’t want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

At this point I’d like to ask: What Would Feynman Say?

“It doesn’t seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”

I’ve posted that on here before but it gets to the nub of the problem I have with at least Abrahamic religion.

It does not of course preclude the existance of some form of superior being.

At this point I’d like to ask: What Would Feynman Say

“
Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, “But how can it be like that?” because you will get “down the drain,” into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that.
”

teamhurtmore – Member

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). So I am a hypocrite….hmmmm?
Yup. An unpleasant troll as well and fundamentally dishonest in your debating on here. Best ignored in future I think.

“Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!”

I like the way you blame me for your banning – I don’t blame you for mine – I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions

I take it all back – not everyone has learned from their recent bans 😉

TJ, with respect, your debating style does us no favours.

It is a shame when potentially interesting discussions descend into name calling, why oh why TJ do you have to keep doing it….

..Good night, and may your God go with you

Hilldodger –

i do apologise for that to you

I allowed teamhurtmore to get under my skin which I should not. However I stand by my assessment of him. the fundamental dishonsety of his appraoch is infuriating

with that I will leave this as I should have done the moment he appeared on the thread.

Teamhurtmore. In the slight of chance that you have missed TJs arguments on this sort if thread they go like this:

Are homosexuals good or bad? If bad then you have no place in modern society. If good then you disagree with what the bible says and therefore aren’t Christian. You can’t win so it’s best not to bother.

Shame really as the discussion started to get interesting after page 5 which often seems to happen. Good job though and your posts are appreciated. The idea that the bible is a collection of texts that need interpreting isn’t one that lends itself easily to discussion like this

I wonder idly if part of the problem is that some of us are perhaps judging ‘all Xians’ by the beliefs and actions of the US bible belt fundies.

It must be a tough one to consolidate as a Christian; either the Bible is the word of god or it isn’t. If it is, we’re in “god hates fags” territory; if it’s not, then it’s a strange starting point to base a belief on. If you accept that it’s a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Leffeboy – no the point is this

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

An alternative point of view is that ‘scriptures’ are the collection of documents considered to be inspired by God in some way. That might be either by being written by someone who was in direct contact with Jesus, written by one of the prophets or maybe written by someone that God is considered to have spoken to directly. Of course deciding which of these documents is authoritative enough to be included causes some problems? In many cases saying that someone ‘wrote’ a book is also incorrect, especially for the Old Testament, where the stories may be stories about someone rather that written by them.

teamhurtmore – Member

( Anyway don’t want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

You seemed obsessed with not getting banned again teamhurtmore, relax mate – it’s good to let your pent up frustrations out.

And with 15 pages this thread certainly appears to have been the catalyses for releasing some pent up frustrations.

Perhaps if STW discussed religion a little more often people wouldn’t feel the need to keep their views on religion bottled up for so long 💡

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Slavoj Zizek thinks that is essential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx3_2lpvZKM

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

Funny that an atheist is now pronouncing on theological issues, isn’t it?

If you accept that it’s a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

There was that bishop, wasn’t there? And btw I’ve spoken to quite a few Christians who consider the bible to be a set of parables or writings by humans. Doesn’t preclude the existence of God, does it? Now we’re getting into some realistic shades of grey, and looking at human interpretations of scripture and religion.

Surely it’s everyone’s perogative to interpret the bible as they see fit. Do you also have to go to Church every Sunday to be a Christian?

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

If you lead your life in a way that mirrors the parables, does that make you a christian?

If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

That only undermines the notion that it is the word of god.

Individual sections still retain their value as moral / instructional tales.

Indeed cougar and these are some of the interesting questions even for non-Christians. Take the parallels in the NT and how they are to be interpreted. Was Jesus indeed fulfilling the prophecies of the OT or were they all post-event justifications. Does it matter? what does the word Hosanna mean in the Easter story? The one that people are told in Sunday School or something completely different? I suppose it’s like studying literature or history, so much more to understand and debate that seems at face value.

Thanks Leffe and Ernie – don’t want to miss the bike forum. Too much to learn!!!!

So then – the bible is not the word of God? Its actually people who interpret it and tell you which bits to follow and believe – so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people?

so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people

Long usage has given it great validity.