HS2 Expensive white elephent or vital infrastructure essential to the economic recovery.

…and where should it stop, Brum, Manchester or Glasgow.

I’ll start. In favour all the way to Glasgow!

vanity project for a few industry and govt bighitters

and for that reason, I’m out

Had a talk about it from Sir Brian Briscoe (HS2 CHairman) about it a few months ago. Obviously he told me all the positives about it and very few of the negatives as expected but I felt he made a good case.

One point he made that I never really realised is that the point of it is to provide additional capacity rather than just a faster train. All the news articles on it focus on the time reduction from a journey to Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds, whereas the real benefit will be the increased capacity it will open up on these busy lines.

On the other hand it is a lot to stump up (especially in these austere times) for just one project.

There’s so much persuasive lobbying both for and against, that I can’t form an opinion.

Maybe it should be a monorail……….

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw[/video]

says someone who “works” in the rail industry.

for:

trains are full and getting fuller – and consequently expensive. (the operators can charge what they like, people have to travel)

we need more trains/lines – they may as well be high speed jobbies.

my sister lives right next to (and i do mean RIGHT next to) a train line. The occasional swoosh of a train quickly becomes non-bothersome, much less so than the continual drone of a road.

do it now while contracts will be cheap – the civil engineering companies are desperate for work.
.
.
against:

it’ll ruin some lovely countryside.

we don’t know if the benefits will materialise.
.
.
i’m in the ‘for’ camp right now. any other position would make me a hypocrite – because i use trains and would quite like them to go a bit quicker.

(fwiw – HS1 goes through the space where my Gran’s house used to stand)

Yep it is all about capacity, those who suggest upgrading the west coast main line might like to remember the last time this was done at the cost of £8bn with very little to see for it.

The capacity will only come from a new line.

What would be good is a fully integrated continental railway. Imagine getting on at Manchester and getting off in Madrid! Thats the way to get people off planes!

I’m for it, but I can’t see a case in the medium term to go beyond the Northwest/Manchester.

The current services running between Birmingham and London are very heavily loaded. The only way of managing that loading is ‘revenue management’ – i.e. charging more to travel. This is not only restricted by DfT governance, but it’s not helpful in terms of economic growth etc.

The existing operators are stuck – some trains are going to be lengthened to provide more capacity, but without a huge amount of investment in the infrastructure to provide more capacity on existing lines then the number of trains that can run is pretty much maxed out.

The West Coast route modernisation cost nigh on £9 billion, mainly because it was done whilst trying to keep the line open. It was costly and ensured the infrastructure was operating well below the failure rates required. Lesson learnt there is that it is much easier to build a new line than try and improve an open one to that extent.

The West Coast was built in the Victorian era and then expanded by adding further lines later. Compare the geometry of the West Coast with the Great Western main lines and you can see the restrictions in place with the West Coast (it makes maintaining the West Coast much harder than, say, the Great Western). The route weaves around so that the only way to achieve anything greater than 125mph requires a tilting train (the current Pendolino trains were originally bought to do 140mph.)

The only way forward is to provide an alternative european-style high-speed route certainly between London and Birmingham.

The problem the rail industry faces is how to cope with demand between now and completion of the new line.

unlikely to happen as it will have to go through a load of tories’ back gardens in the chilterns.

and everyone knows that train lines ruin landscapes 😉

for the record, I’m in favour of rail expansion, but long distance routes aren’t the only thing that need improving – we need to be able to get people to the stations in the first place. Bloody Dr Beeching closed all the branch lines that we could really do with now.

Dave

I love a good train thread. Interesting thing on Radio 4 the other day about SNCF (still fully nationalised of course) putting in tenders to run UK train lines 😆

The Tories in Bucks/chilterns are also annoyed because despite the line going right through their back gardens, they will still have to take the x5 all the way to London or Brimingham to actually get on or off it. I don’t know whether they have considered that the existing trains will be less crowded. Mind you, if they get too empty i suppose they will run them less frequently. Hmmmmmm….

In this age of electronic communication why not ‘predict and restrict’ by leaving things as they are, not bulding HS2, and allowing the market to decide who really needs to travel rather than doing their business online. It would be so much cheaper as well as stopping the midlands from becoming Londonised as the south has.

There are a lot of nimbys here in Bucks that are against it; I keep telling people that it’s a capacity issue and the journey saving times are irrelevant but their views are entrenched and I have to admit that if I lived somewhere like Wendover I’d be pretty annoyed by the proposed route. The “anti” organisations are IMHO taking completely the wrong tack, pushing the lack of business case. Railways haven’t had tangible business cases since the middle of the last century – they’re something you build for the general strategic good of the country, a bit like motorways. They’d be better off attacking the route; something parallel with the WCML would have seemed a lot more sensible to me.

My biggest issue with HS2 is that a bunch of my council tax has been given by the council to the anti-HS2 group without my say; as one who’s in favour of HS2 I want my money back!

something parallel with the WCML would have seemed a lot more sensible to me

Too many curves – wouldn’t be able to do the speed.

there may well be a capcity issue but when do we say “enough is enough!” and draw the line against an ever-increasing everything? Remember that wartime poster, “IS YOUR JOURNEY REALLY NECESSARY?”

I live a mile or so from where HS2 will emerge from the sub Chiltern tunnel. I have no string view either way about HS2 but just want a quick, clear decision. My folks come from Kent and have friends who’s houses were blighted for 20+ years due to indecision.

Let’s hope we get a final decision!

One point he made that I never really realised is that the point of it is to provide additional capacity rather than just a faster train.

This.

The WCML is full, you have to do something, and as observed up there the WCML Upgrade was a cock-up that came in vastly overbudget and delivered chuff all of what was promised!

You’ve got to do something, and HS2 is the obvious solution. No real reason for it to go all the way to Scotland in the first instance IMO, perhaps Manchester.

I love a good train thread. Interesting thing on Radio 4 the other day about SNCF (still fully nationalised of course) putting in tenders to run UK train lines

Why not, ze Germans run our biggest freight operator and a couple of our passenger franchises too (Arriva are actually owned by Deutsche Bahn) and we’ve got the Dutch here too. The Frecnh have a significant stake in several TOCs already anyway.

One point he made that I never really realised is that the point of it is to provide additional capacity rather than just a faster train.

something parallel with the WCML would have seemed a lot more sensible to me
Too many curves – wouldn’t be able to do the speed.

😐

scaredypants – Member
vanity project for a few industry and govt bighitters

and for that reason, I’m out

Posted 3 hours ago # Report-Post

Just like the giant waste of cash thats going to be the olympics then,

Here’s my painstakingly researched, carefully considered and highly nuanced opinion:

Trains are ace. MOAR TRAINS. 😀

Just like the giant waste of cash thats going to be the olympics then,

Yep, astronomical levels of self-indulgent wankery there

Can we link north, mid and south Wales together without having to go through England first please?

Can we link north, mid and south Wales together without having to go through England first please?

No, because that benefits about 6 people a year, of which 4 are sheep 🙂

Can we link north, mid and south Wales together without having to go through England first please?

Hmm toll the welsh that use our roads and then use the money to fund HS2?

After many complaints they’ve moved the line away from the ‘historic’ Hartwell House, and 80m nearer Aylesbury – so reduce the impact on one business, impact the best part of a 1000 houses…, including mine.

But for me, put the tender out at 50% current quotes – pay on completion.

Also fix the route, buy any property within 100 yds who want out, rent out these properties until the line is either built or they need demolition. Then sell those remaining. Should solve any complaints.

My parents are somewhat concerned that their idyllic country cottage will be ruined by the Birmingham to Leeds route, although at 91 and 87 years of age, it may not actually be built in their lifetimes. May mess up my inheritance though 🙁
There seems to be very little info about this section of the proposed route – I can’t find any maps.

BlobOnAStick – Member
I’m for it, but I can’t see a case in the medium term to go beyond the Northwest/Manchester.

as a resident of Newcastle, i can.

We need this – WCML too full to allow much expansion of freight, which means no alternative to lorries on the M6.

Also, HS2 will be build to a European loading gauge (GB2+?) which will allow, among other things, double-deck trains (and therefore a big increase in capacity) – current lines cannot be up-gauged as there are too many bridges etc.

Andy

Here you are Lady Gresley, any relaion to Sir Nigel Gresley, designer of dsome fine trains.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110130205316/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/mitigatednorthernroutesection/

Thanks Project (knew you’d pop up soon!) but that doesn’t show the proposed “y” routes north of Brum where the west goes to Mancland and the east line goes to Leeds – it’s the east one that may affect them.

For: The potential to cut carbon emissions.

Against: If the continued escalation of fares is anything to go by it’ll be only for the rich.
Funds will be diverted from essential mainline upgrades.
Commuters don’t need it.
It’ll ruin some countryside.
Business folk will still rather fly.
The whole deal stinks.

This map any use .Lady G

http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/in-your-area

The unspoilt countryside that HS2 will ruin, yesterday:

The current plan for HS2 really just seems to lack any real thought about future need. Rather than the simpsons monorail analogy – although it is a good one and should be required viewing for all comissioning new works – I think the better one is from Black Adder IV were they discuss the latest battle in terms of the human cost to move the generals drinks cabinet a couple of inches.

I think the current route and plan to go west is flawed. Personally I’d rather see a combination of high speed and high gauge routes.

For HS2 would it not be better to link London, East Midlands, Sheffield then via Woodhead into Manchester and on to Liverpool. You then get a route linking several major cities and areas which would really benifit for ecomonic regeneration. Between Liverpool / Manchester / Sheffield you could then run a shuttle train system to take wagons off the road. Taking that idea further – re-gauge the line out to Holyhead and exetend a high gauge line east to Hull. Doing the later then opens up the option for double deck commuter trains. For the section between London and Sheffield area build it as four track – two highspeed and two commuter / freight. Since this is turning into fantacy train tracks I’d also go for a high gauge freight link into Harwich – isnt this the biggest contain port in the UK.

HS3 – built at same time as two. Continue the four track high speed / high gauge route North to Newcastle. Build a link line to give the option of Manchester / Newcastle trains. Continue N to Edinburgh / Glasgow.

HS4 – Manchester / Liverpool south via Stoke to Birmingham and onto Bristol / S Wales. If you took the link round the E of Birmingham and also build a link into HS2 that would give the London to Birmingham route.

HS5 – would you really need London / Bristol and S Wales? London via Birmingham times could be quick enough to remove the need?

Linking into Scotland would probably be best done via the East Coast. Taking the current proposed west coast route doesnt really deliver that much at all. North of Preston its not going to be a true highspeed line and there’s a hundred and something miles with relatively little in terms of large towns or cities. True the East coast is sparcely populated between S. Nortumberland and Edinburgh. Surely highspeed rail links would also make the NE of England more attractive to businesses and increase private sector employment.

Ultimately it needs to be planned as a network to move people and freight round the country in the 21st and 22nd centuries. In its current form HS2 seems more about turning Birmingham into another London airport and getting people out to Heathrow.

There you go, you did ask!

Business folk will still rather fly.

This is not the experience on the continent, as there comes a point where the extra journey time on the train is still less than the faff time with aircraft. Would you rather go city centre to city centre, or would you rather have to travel to an out-of-town airport, get there early to check in, then have to get back into town at the other end?

Also, trains generally have more space for working than aircraft.

Andy

oldagedpredator – So you propose building the most heavily congested sections last when the governments probably run out of money anyway?

Nah, I think that’s the worst thought out plan I’ve seen on here!

oldagedpredator – Member
True the East coast is sparcely populated between S. Nortumberland and Edinburgh. Surely highspeed rail links would also make the NE of England more attractive to businesses and increase private sector employment.

At the evidence given to the Transport Select COmmittee, John Tomaney argued against HS2 going to Newcastle. Not because of the cost of damage to the countryside, but because it would make it too easy to get to London from the NE:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14113764

An expensive white elephant to me. The wrong answer to the wrong question

Not sure I fully agree with Frodo way ^^ there. West Coast upgrade took out a lot of level crossings (which allowed line speed increases) and re-doubled the track in the Trent Valley which had been taken out by Beeching(?). Capacity increased quite a bit – as did the price of tickets! Railtrack looked at a fancy signalling system to allow 140 mph linespeed that eventually got scrapped to bring the costs down to £9b from an original estimate of £2.2b iirc. (Estimate went £12b or more at one stage).

I did hear Iain Coucher when head of Network Rail say that he did not believe there was a business case for HST2 to go to Leeds via Birmingham, not sure if this was a personal or NR view though. Things change and politicians do not always make the best decisions when votes are to be had. Or lost.

As also said up there it is a lot easier and therefore cheaper to build a line fresh than to upgrade a current line.

Business folk will still rather fly.

Nope, we want the easiest/quickest way from where-we-start to where-we-need to go.

For example; when I lived in Leeds I used the train regularly into London, as it was quicker and easier – plus this was before 9/11, now it would be a no-brainer even for the most train-hater. The fact I got breakfast, and time to read the paper and work was just a plus.

The problem (for those who want to reduce congestion) with where I live now is that my car is usually the easiest/quickest (and mostly cheapest) option for UK travel.

And as someone directly impacted by HS2, but who’ll never really be able to use it, my message is – just get it done.

EDIT – that he did not believe there was a business case for HST2 to go to Leeds via Birmingham, not sure if this was a personal

Its infrastructure and usually almost impossible to ‘justify’, a bit like a companies’ new finance system – you know its needed but any business case could easily be destroyed.

it will be another Concorde, something paid for by the majority for the use of a privileged minority.