HS2 spiralling costs

its worth noting that the maximum a company can donate to all political parties in total is £25k/year.

a measure easily got round. Bribes in hundreds of thousands are common.  Non exec directorships, promise of a job afterwartds.  personal donations fromthe board etc etc

the other thing with france is its a thru route IE on the way to somewhere.  Italy, Spain Germany.  the UK is a dead end

But you want to cancel HS2 and invest a bomb in duplicating railways in the Highlands! 🤯

Everyone knows that if you want a public sector contract you need to bribe the tories 

Tell me you don’t know anything about public sector procurement without etc etc.

Tell me you are incredibly naive if you think that bribery to get contracts is not the norm – its just legalised as “political donations”  Non exec directorships, consultancies etc etc.  There are direct links between people who put money to tories in various forms and getting those fat contracts.  Its well known – why do you think they funnel millions to the tory party?

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/exclusive-property-tycoons-gave-tories-more-than-11m-in-less-than-a-year/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/20/one-of-tories-biggest-ever-donors-frank-hester-profited-from-135m-of-nhs-contracts

‘My Little Crony’ map shows web of deals between Government, MPs and Tory donors

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-backers-handed-180m-worth-22493296

Etc etc

Tell me you are incredibly naive if you think that bribery to get contracts is not the norm

It’s not the norm. I know for a fact my company doesn’t donate to political parties or individual politicians. To my knowledge we’ve never employed an ex-politician in any capacity, and we don’t get involved in any political debates. We operate with strict political neutrality, and yet we have won contracts from HS2 and other big projects which are worth billions. By your logic that shouldn’t be possible. I’m sure other companies aren’t as transparent or neutral but it’s not the norm by a long shot.

the other thing with france is its a thru route IE on the way to somewhere. Italy, Spain Germany. the UK is a dead end

London is currently the dead end. A version of HS2 that keeps it that way is a complete waste of time. Links to Manchester (and Yorkshire) from the continent should have been kept in the plan. By now we should have been talking about extending that further… Liverpool, Glasgow… but instead we’re going backwards. I can’t believe that the current discussion is whether HS2 should even go into London! Not even linking Brum into continental routes! Bonkers Little Britain myopia.

Topography and historical development certainly don’t help in the UK. France’s big cities are at opposite ends of the country, so it’s worth putting in long lines that span the country.

Looks like Rishi is going to bottle it (as per usual) and get his party conference speech day behind a military stockade in Manchester out of the way before he announces he’s scrapping the northern part of HS2

Whats your company Dazh?  I’d love to check upon this amazing company that manages to get huge public sector contracts without this legalised bribery.  All of the big civil engineering companies I have looked at do this routinely to a greater or lessor extent.  the first two Iooked at for HS2 have done so

So assuming Rishi announces this at some point we are going to end up with a bit of track from Birmingham to the edge of London. So not only is it not going to connect to HS1 at St Pancras it’s not even going to connect to London. Presumably any time savings made on the fast bit will be lost as you get in the tube to reach central London.  Even by the standards of politicians this is beyond stupid.

Presumably any time savings made on the fast bit will be lost as you get in the tube to reach central London

Yes but more than that, the Elizabeth Line doesn’t have the capacity to pick up everyone at Old Oak Common and get them into London.

Stupid short-termist ****.

If it gets scrapped, the next 10 Governments are going to be spending billions each trying to fix the issues it’ll create.
Like Brexit only that was a stupid idea to begin with whereas HS2 is actually a good idea.

tj – who are ‘All of the ‘big civil engineering companies’ you claim to have looked at?
What ‘checks’ have you undertaken?
What have you done to verify your ‘findings’?
You’re making some serious allegations without producing a shred of evidence.
Which are the two companies you allege paid bribes to secure HS2 contracts?

I worked for an infrastructure contractor who secured a number of HS2 contracts – both stand alone and JVs – and I will say exactly what dazh said…no bribery, no corruption.

TJ I’m not going to name my employer here as I’m not an official spokesperson. Suffice to say we’re one of the leading multi-disciplinary engineering consultancies in the UK/world and have worked on pretty much every major project you can think of. We win contracts on projects like HS2 because we’re extremely good at what we do and nothing else. You’ll just have to take my word for it. I wouldn’t work for them if it wasn’t the case.

I would like to add that I have personally seen Daz take brown envelopes stuffed with notes off Mohamed Al Fayed, Christine Hamilton, Elvis, Sir Phillip Green and a selection of Saudi princes, but no representatives from HS2

tj – who are ‘All of the ‘big civil engineering companies’ you claim to have looked at?
What ‘checks’ have you undertaken?
What have you done to verify your ‘findings’?
You’re making some serious allegations without producing a shred of evidence.
Which are the two companies you allege paid bribes to secure HS2 contracts?

Amey and balfour beattie I looked at in context of hs2.  Both paid huge bribes IIRC – as recorded in the register of interests etc.  Its been legalised as “consultancy fees”  “Non exec directorships”  ” political donations”  etc etc.  Often also disguised as individuals donating in a private capacity.  Both companies are large donors to the tory party in a varioety of ways

Its legalised corruption and they are almost all at it.

Its all in the register of interests and other government published stuff

I think reducing train safety as a way of increasing capacity is a non-starter, and that’s putting it very politely. 🙂

5 people per year killed on coaches and busses

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2021

I’d guess the average (which is noisy) on trains and trams is likely higher, so you could trim a large portion of that margin without introducing significant risk

Amey and balfour beattie I looked at in context of hs2

I don’t doubt some firms think political donations will win them work although I don’t really know how much that is a factor. For a project like HS2 I reckon competence, resilience and the ability to deliver are much higher priorities than political alignment or how much they might have donated to the party in govt. Some companies (like the one I work for) even do this sort of project out of social obligation, rather than because they’re going to make huge amounts of money out of it. You can’t assume that all companies are the same and have the same motivations as a couple of shady operators.

tj – you’re in full ‘reds under the bed’ mode.
There is absolutely NO evidence of bribery, collusion, cartels, cover pricing or other illegal/questionable behaviours in the development of tender lists, short lists or contract awards for any aspect of HS2 – and that covers contractors, consultants, material suppliers, plant & equipment suppliers and all the rest.

This is nothing other than your personal interpretation of legal activities and payments.

Who do you think was bribed?
How would they influence the tender process – ranging from pre qual through tender development/submission/assessment/evaluation and contract award?

Tender evaluations for a project of this size and complexity would have included external third party experts.

You appear to be saying that political donations and consultancy fees are shorthand for bribery and corruption.
Do you seriously think that any serious bidder for HS2 work would risk any possible award by attempting to bribe and/or corrupt?
The legal consequences would be significant and would result in them being disqualified from tendering for other government sponsored infrastructure and construction works; then there is the possibility of director disqualification.

HS2 is an opportunity for many of the contractors and consultants to demonstrate their skills to a global infrastructure market.
They, categorically, will/would not compromise that opportunity.

Do you really think that, given the number of companies involved and the level of scrutiny, any bribery/corruption could be hidden?

You refer to Amey; do you mean Ferrovial?

Why not look at a full list of HS2 contract awards and see if you can find any further ‘evidence’ to support your assertions.

You can’t rule out the possibility that a company wins a bid fairly but the owner is a Tory supporter anyway. I’m not claiming either way, but you cannot rule it out.

Frank – you are in full denial

companies do not funnel hundreds of thousands to the tories for nothing in return.  Of course this is legalised bribery

the UK is politically corrupt from top to bottom

It’s probably closer to suggest that policy that benefits large benefactors might be steered to some degree as a result of big donations to political parties.

In any case, if one contractor thought their bid was derailed due to unfair practices they would squeal pretty loudly.  They did for the Phase of HS2 I worked on.  I worked for a consortium that only got the contract due to an upheld complaint that the original contract winner had unfair advantage with their bid due to insider knowledge.

MOlgrips -= no you cannot rule it out of course but its obvious to those whoa re not willfully blind that this legalised bribery is what greases the wheels

I found one tory being paid £2000 an hour ( if he did his 20 hours a month which I very much doubt) as an advisor to an industry that then got favourable laws passed

NOt HS2 but check this out.  Bribery successfully used

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/20/one-of-tories-biggest-ever-donors-frank-hester-profited-from-135m-of-nhs-contracts

I worked for a consortium that only got the contract due to an upheld complaint that the original contract winner had unfair advantage with their bid due to insider knowledge.

thats exactly the siort of advantage your bribes get you.

t’s probably closer to suggest that policy that benefits large benefactors might be steered to some degree as a result of big donations to political parties.

So if you donate money to the tories they will alter policy to suit you

I cannot believe you guys are so willfully blind on this.  People do not give these huge sums to the tories for nothing

pay £50 000 to tory funds you get a seat at a table with senior ministers.  Pay for access.  This one is not even hidden

I’m not blind to it TJ.  Whichever party it is, those that donate do so as they think that party best suits their end goal. It’s why unions historically pretty much backed Labour not the Torys. As long as as parties are funded this way or there is a cap on donations to what the average man in the street can cough up from his own pocket, it’s gonna happen.

tj – I’m not in any form of denial.

Your assertions of bribery would not withstand even cursory legal scrutiny.

You have chosen to not address any of my points; try this one, again – who has been bribed and how was the tender process and contract award influenced?

The multiple work packages comprising HS2 were subject to OJEU regs which means they were open to legal challenge and the tender evaluation results would have been been available to all tenderers for a work package.
How many challenges – successful or not – were made to proposed contract awards?

You appear to be saying that all the contractors and consultants have bribed their way to being awarded contracts.

None of the engineering or construction publications and websites have even hinted at HS2 bribery/corruption/collusion or reported any allegations or suggestions; are you suggesting they’re suppressing any allegations or suggestions?

2 plus 2 does not, categorically, equal 5.

Your posts remind me of republican politicians in the US…Joe Biden is corrupt; Where’s the evidence? Look at Hunter.
Completely unrelated events.

This is TJ who lives in Edinburgh, the city that managed to spaff £1bn on a single tram line that exactly replicated an existing bus route…

So you can understand why he believes all public infrastructure projects to be similarly dire.

For reference, Manchester built 8 tram lines covering 100+km with 99 stations for not much more than that.

TJ, you sound like you’re about three posts away from going full conspiracy theory and telling the “sheeple” to “do your own research”

You really need to step away from your computer as all you’re doing, again, is turning what is an interesting forum thread in to an argument where you’re right and everyone else is wrong.

tj – using insider knowledge is NOT bribery.

Are you suggesting that the tories orchestrated or influenced an individual’s decision to move to another company as it would assist the new employer to (unfairly) influence and win a tender?

I’ll read your further posts with a sense of amusement but (probably) won’t be engaging further as you’re blind to reason and common sense on this one.

Its willful blindness to legalised bribery.  Irs rife in uk public life.  For example

REVEALED: Tory MP secretly lobbied ministers on behalf of gambling industry

I have now put up half a dozen examples of this stuff. Just because its been legalised does not mean its not bribery and corruption

Ill walk now because the willful blindness you guys have to this corruption is absurd.

I think you’re (TJ) conflating the blatant and open currying of favour through sham directorships and lobbying via Tufton street et al, with the actual awarding of individual contracts on HS2.

Its not direct in that its “I pay you money you give me the contract”.  But a friendly ear in government makes your success in bidding more likely. There is no direct evidence of this in many cases.  Its really hard to show influence peddling and HS2 might well be more secure and transparent than most tho the fact that the major contractors funnel huge sums directly and indirectly into the government gives rise to suspicion and best and provable corruption in many cases as in the half dozen examples I have given.

these folk do not give these huge sums for nothing.  don’t be naive

MOlgrips -= no you cannot rule it out of course but its obvious to those whoa re not willfully blind that this legalised bribery is what greases the wheels

I’m not denying it, but the world is a much more complicated place than you seem to think. You over-simplify to the point of ridicule at times.

tj – the wilful blindness on this subject is totally on your part.
You have failed to provide any evidence to support your statement that Amey/Ferrovial or Balfour Beatty bribed their way to HS2 contract awards.
References to the NHS or gambling do nothing to support the assertions you continue to make about HS2.

You clearly have a fixation that (all) public sector contract awards are based on bribery and corruption; you refuse to accept informed views from those experienced in construction, engineering and public sector procurement.

You said you were stepping away – but haven’t.
Equally, I said I wouldn’t engage further with you on this thread – but have, for the last time.

£50k is not a huge sum of money to any company involved in bidding for an HS2 contract unless its the guy supplying 20 portaloos to one of the sites (and thats been subbed down so many times as to be trivial). A lot of companies, both successful and unsuccessful will give money to either both party, or whichever is in power.

But a friendly ear in government makes your success in bidding more likely.

Does it though? Who makes the decisions on where the contracts go? Is it actually ministers, or civil servants? Serious question for anyone who knows. I’ve only ever been involved with low level decisions where there was clearly no corruption because it was just a bunch of staff talking in a room.

OK Frank – ;last comment in response to this

You have failed to provide any evidence to support your statement that Amey/Ferrovial or Balfour Beatty bribed their way to HS2 contract awards.

I did not say it was direct – indeed I said the opposite.   Its indirect.  Its about having a friendly ear, its about having someone to mention your company, its about having tenders written to suit your company, its about little tidbits of information you get given about the tender process etc etc.  all those little things that make it more likely you get the contract

Both those companies give large sums of money to the tory party and to individual influential MPs.  They do not do so out of the goodness of their Heart.  They do so because they get advantage out of it

Fine.
You’ve stated that countless times so please just shut up and believe it.

🤦

Doesnt matter if its direct or indirect, you need to provide some form of evidence to flesh out your claims, otherwise anyone reading is perfectly entitled to dismiss them regardless of their authenticity.

tj – just because you believe the process is corrupt does not make it so.
Facts and evidence are completely absent in your allegations/assertions/statements.
The 4 Fs apply – First Find the ——- Facts.
It would be really helpful IF you had some understanding of commercial contracting, OJEU regs and end-to-end public sector tendering and procurement before wading in with your false statements that HS2 contract awards are based on bribery and corruption.

With that, I’ll leave you with your conspiracy theories