so I kinda get paid to know about this stuff

So knowledgable, in fact, that your best defence of the technology is to call people ‘b!tches’.

Call me old fashioned, but that’s not what is known as a very strong argument in the world of science and technology.

This is the best description of cryptocurrency I have seen, “libertarian derp plus technobabble”

Its value rests on the perception that it's a technologically sophisticated way to protect yourself from the inevitable collapse of fiat money, which is coming one of these days, or maybe one of these centuries. Or, as I say, libertarian derp plus technobabble 3/

— Paul Krugman (@paulkrugman) May 19, 2021

I could be making stuff up to win an internet argument) but I work in banking technology after a fairly long stint in the energy industry, so I kinda get paid to know about this stuff

Major parents’ spare room energy here.

so I kinda get paid to know about this stuff

REALLY?!

I find that very hard to believe…….since your most insightful & intelligent response is to hurl
insults…

That Paul Krugman nailed it. It’s all vapour to me but if you can have a little dabble and perhaps make a bit of beer money, why not?

I’m a lurker, not got a coin base account yet etc., but as mentioned in an earlier post, it seems a really accessible way to get into the stock market.

Like @sirromj I bought a few small bits of crypto hoping to learn more about it with an open mind. So far, all the arguments I’ve seen have boiled down to ‘I had some money and now I have more money so it must be good’ and I don’t really find that convincing. Also, having some ‘skin in the game’ didn’t really help me learn anything other than seeing some numbers go up and down a bit on my screen. It felt a bit like playing Championship Manager.

So, did anyone actually click on and read the hedera link I provided when challenged to “enlighten”?

No?

Hence the “whiny little b1tches” comment. Over the years I’ve seen the same arguments rolled out over and over again from people who clearly don’t actually want to look for themselves at the potential uses for these technologies. People who’ve decided that it’s a con, or it’s worthless and spend their time dismissing it – without actually looking at the work that’s being done.

I’ll provide that link again. It might go nowhere. It might not. That’s why I said “potentially” transformative.
https://hedera.com/users/power-transition

There are literally hundreds of use-cases for the various cryptocurrencies / token ecosystems. That is where there value is – real value.

Even if you don’t buy into cash replacement – that’s fine. If you don’t like the volatility – that’s down to the small number of actors significantly involved. Mass adoption brings (has brought) increasing stability. But like I said – that’s not what this is all about.

I don’t feel the need to “defend” crypto (as someone said). It’s your loss if you’re missing what’s going on, not mine. But I do like to prod people who are unremittingly negative about stuff they’ve not got the inclination of really looking below the hood of.

Yep, thanks for asking @chevychase I clicked on the link so thanks for ‘enlightening’ me. Having done that I can’t get my head around where the crypto currency and token ecosystems diverge with Hedera. For example, in a microgrid environment the usage will be captured using Hedera Hashgraph but presumably the customer will be billed in local currency?

Tell these people they are just trading with tulips
El Salvador

hedera sounds like a solution looking for a problem .

and heading towards chaos for various reasons.

that’s down to the small number of actors significantly involved

Something we agree on. Some of these actors also being rogue states.

Mass adoption brings (has brought) increasing stability

Not that anyone would notice..

Even if you don’t buy into cash replacement

If it was going to happen it would have happened this year + conditions were ripe.

In terms of it being used for its blockchain properties I.e. unique identifier, it has potential but as a replacement for Fiat currencies? Not happening. Oh & it’s still an ‘asset’ class where it’s predominant use has been for laundering & tax evasion. One thing it isn’t is a Ponzi scheme though. But its too volatile & it lacks transparency for me to consider as anything more than a punt. There are also like it or not – question marks around its ‘green’ credentials, mind PTVolts looks interesting but it’s in its infancy. I will admit Hedera may have potential.

But lay off the insulting language ok. No need for it.

But I do like to prod people who are unremittingly negative about stuff they’ve not got the inclination of really looking below the hood of.

Okay cool. So lets discuss beneath the hood.
How do you equate the proof of stake approach with one of the original ideas about decentralising power?
What value is being added in that case study you are linking to? It looks like they are sitting in the middle judging from their comments about aggregating and viewing data so what exactly is the advantage here above a normal approach?

hedera – I understand the tech is different (tested and perfected by insects) but what makes hedera any better than any other general use blockchain? (Eth/Ada/Atom/Algo/SOL).

I just finished project for a international org that had would been much better suited to something like VeChain. However, no matter what tech you used – the same master data problems would still remain.

hedera sounds like a solution looking for a problem .

and heading towards chaos for various reasons.

Why so @trailrat?

Eftpos (think Visa) in Austrailia have joined the Hedera council along with big hitters such as Google, LG, IBM, Boeing, Deutsche Telekom etc. Eftpos are also looking at linking payments to stablecoins which are backed by fiat currency so avoid the volatility of other digital currencies.

Edit to add link

I look forward to using any of this new technology once it has something to offer me by making my life easier. If any of it becomes genuinely useful and idiot proof for the average bozo like me who isn’t technologically minded, then great! I currently have no use for a cryptocurrency therefore I don’t need to speculate on what might become useful in future. I guess if you have a genuine interest and understanding in the technology and concepts then it might be fun to get behind one of them, but that certainly isn’t me. But I do enjoy following the bitcoin story, despite having no financial interest in it.

To Checychase – so Hedera is basically a stable cryptocurrency for energy trading? There are links later to opening it up – doesn’t opening it mean it will become unstable, so defeating the original point?

It seems to me that there are separate debates to be had about Bitcoin (and other current cryptocurrencies) and blockchain in general. If actual use-cases can be developed that add real value to society (not just making a lucky few rich through speculation) then I’d be all for it.

The below comment gives the game away really – those of us who didn’t get in early are indeed ‘missing out’ on the opportunity to make money…. and I’ll freely admit to wishing I’d taken a punt 10 years ago. But the above point still stands – if a genuine use case was found then we would all benefit, and no-one would be “missing out”.

It’s your loss if you’re missing what’s going on, not mine

Also, bitcoin mining using green energy is a red herring. It is using our (currently) finite supplies of green energy to create something which has no actual use (again, apart from making some people wealthy). What’s more it displaces other users of energy back to non-green sources.

I think my main problem with beating bitcoin with the energy stick – and I personally don’t deny its valid – is the extent to which people overlook similar issues in their own investments.

How many of us through pension funds or index trackers own shares in Chevron/Rio Tinto/British American Tobacco/Exxon Mobil/BAE systems/Sturm Ruger etc?

I don’t think that argument is valid with respect to Chevron / Exxon / Rio tinto. At present, like it or not, we still need their products in order to maintain our current standard of living. BAT – I will concede make a product which actually negative in terms of overall value to society. That doesn’t make it right to add another pointless ‘industry’ to the mix though !

https://hedera.com/users/power-transition

I read the link.
It must be great, as there are 45 homes in Corby using it… 45…
How you get from that to $19Bn by 2024 i’ll never know.

Power Transition provides a peer-to-peer energy marketplace and management platform for consumer and business microgrids.

What does this even mean?

I’m sure some people may produce a small amount of power from their home, via wind/solar but I cant imagine its significant to be worth the hassle trading it, compared to whats produced by the National Operators.

Tell these people they are just trading with tulips
El Salvador

People who live in countries with unstable Fiat currencies have always turned to other forms of currency. Either the Dollar, or Mobile Phone credit…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04kxddv

Eftpos (think Visa) in Austrailia have joined the Hedera council along with big hitters such as Google, LG, IBM, Boeing, Deutsche Telekom etc. Eftpos are also looking at linking payments to stablecoins which are backed by fiat currency so avoid the volatility of other digital currencies.

If its backed by fiat currency, then why do we need to reinvent the wheel when well already have a functioning banking system for digital financial transactions?

If you enjoyed the above podcast heres another about the Greater Fool Theory
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3csz2xh

How many of us through pension funds or index trackers own shares in Chevron/Rio Tinto/British American Tobacco/Exxon Mobil/BAE systems/Sturm Ruger etc?

Many of these companies will continue to be successful and will adapt diversify.

Tobacco companies are moving over the Vaping or Cannabis type products, and while some of those products are regulated here, dont forget that there is a huge market across developing countries.

Similar for petroleum companies who are diversifying into renewables.

I don’t think that argument is valid with respect to Chevron / Exxon / Rio tinto. At present, like it or not, we still need their products in order to maintain our current standard of living

Similar for petroleum companies who are diversifying into renewables.

I think that’s a bit glib. There are energy companies that are doing much more than Chevron and Exxon, and mining companies more sensitive than Rio Tinto (not hard).

Tobacco companies are moving over the Vaping or Cannabis type products, and while some of those products are regulated here, dont forget that there is a huge market across developing countries.

If you are suggesting that British American Tobacco is a company that is making a positive difference to the world (or even has the potential to be vaguely neutral in its impact), I don’t think either of us will succeed in winning the other over.

I get that this thread is about crypto, but sticking ones’ head in the sand about the (other?) worst excesses of capitalism while levelling similar criticisms at bitcoin is unhelpful I think.

If its backed by fiat currency, then why do we need to reinvent the wheel when well already have a functioning banking system for digital financial transactions?

That’s what I took from the link supplied and hence my solution looking for a problem comment.

trail_rat
Free Member
If its backed by fiat currency, then why do we need to reinvent the wheel when well already have a functioning banking system for digital financial transactions?

That’s what I took from the link supplied and hence my solution looking for a problem comment.

From what I’ve discovered so far it seems to be a solution to micropayments where e.g. paying an artist directly to listen to a single track or buying an extra life in an online game. The current banking system would make the cost of a micropayment prohibitive so the receiver would end up owing the banking system money for a transaction of pennies.

People who live in countries with unstable Fiat currencies have always turned to other forms of currency. Either the Dollar, or Mobile Phone credit…

Yes – and of course the dollar can be inflated away and mobile phone credits can be taken away. Also hard to store wealth in USD if you don’t have a bank account in El Salvador. Banking the unbanked. Lighting network makes cross boarder micro payments possible on bitcoin. A parent working in the US can send their kids $2 back in ES.

We may not need BTC to buy out essential £5 post lock down pints – but it is life changing for others.

Want a real copper bottomed use case for cryptocurrency???

Cumrockets – directly tip your favorite artist for their fine work. Nuff said.

The current banking system would make the cost of a micropayment prohibitive so the receiver would end up owing the banking system money for a transaction of pennies.

Have you seen transactions costs for some of the cryptocurrencies? You are still going to need to cash it in and out of real money at some stage so how will that work.
No one has yet figured out how to make micropayments work properly but I am not sure how this would address the problem any better than anything else.
One issue with all the companies pushing various crypto schemes is they still seem to want to sit in the middle which undermines one of the key arguments for it.

Lighting network makes cross boarder micro payments possible on bitcoin. A parent working in the US can send their kids $2 back in ES.

Not much use for that yet though, is it? By the time their kids receive the BTC (and change it into something they can spend at present) it might be worth $4, or $1 ??

No one has yet figured out how to make micropayments work properly but I am not sure how this would address the problem any better than anything else.

This is what the poc eftpos ran in Australia was trying to establish using a combination of hedera and Aus$ stablecoin. link

Even that press release screams getting in here early as the consultancies on this to get our claws into the pie and ensure we get our cut.

I just don’t see how adding more process to the existing expensive process makes things simpler and cheaper.

Add in the vollitility and you’d be as well having Zimbabwean dollars

Lighting network makes cross boarder micro payments possible on bitcoin. A parent working in the US can send their kids $2 back in ES.

But the whole point of a centrally controlled fiat currency, is that we can all wake up in the morning/next week/next month and the £/$/€/Yen will worth a similar amount to what it is today.
My $2 will still be worth a loaf of bread

In your example:
Yesterday I send by son $2 in Bitcoin so he could by some bread
Yesterday 1 Bitcoin was worth $40,623, so I sent him 0.0000492 Bitcoin

My son has been busy so has only now gone to the shops with his 0.0000492 Bitcoin
At this moment 1 Bitcoin is worth $37,938
That is now worth $1.87

The shopkeeper wants $2 for his bread
My son doesnt have enough money, and so goes hungry

I might as well have sent him 50,000 Vietnamese Dong

Not much use for that yet though, is it? By the time their kids receive the BTC (and change it into something they can spend at present) it might be worth $4, or $1 ??

If the shop keeper is asking for 1000 sats for a loaf and you pay them 1000 sats then its all good.

If the local currency is all rubbish then people are opting out on both sides. Its the same as if they were using the USD. If the USD drops a few % overnight against the Dong, the loaf doesn’t get repriced. It was 1USD yesterday – its 1USD today.

I don’t convert my daily wages back to gold or the USD every day and ask my employer to match it.

I just don’t see how adding more process to the existing expensive process makes things simpler and cheaper.

Add in the vollitility and you’d be as well having Zimbabwean dollars

Keep up at the back @trail_rat, my post and the link clearly state the currency is StableCoin linked to Australian Dollar so hardly in Zimbabwean dollar territory.

If a commercial organisation like eftpos want to bring a new financial product to the marketplace it will have to be financially viable for all parties and it will sink or swim on that premise.

That’s great but only works if everyone in the chain converts to SAT otherwise there will always be a loser in the chain – and it won’t be the bank

Shinton. It’s an extreme example but if that’s the only bit of my arguement you want to call me out on then my point is made.

Its the same as if they were using the USD. If the USD drops a few % overnight against the Dong, the loaf doesn’t get repriced. It was 1USD yesterday – its 1USD today.

Yep, and you said it right there…. you can generally expect swings of only a few% with USD and other stable currencies. When/if BTC gets to have a relatively stable value it could be used for the case you describe….. but then many folk who current hold it will lose interest!

Hmm. I better tell all those El Salvadorans to stop using it and go back to the USD, 1 day remittance times and 12% western union fees.

Fact is – according to that artical they are using it – and its working for them. Those who were using pre 2021 and have managed to save a few sats have 3x their savings. Compared to using and saving in the USD – that’s pretty good.

If I was selling bread for sats right now, I’d be accepting and saving as much of it I can knowing it’s almost 50% off its ATH.

But the whole point of a centrally controlled fiat currency, is that we can all wake up in the morning/next week/next month and the £/$/€/Yen will worth a similar amount to what it is today.

Is it? It’s worth noting that the contemporary idea of centrally controlled fiat currency is relatively new, and to some degree has been blamed for pretty much every recession since its inception, because it’s arguably an exercise of kicking the can down the road, passing off any debt to the future.

Cryptocurrency will stabalise if it reaches mass adoption. And there are some obvious and concerning risks that come with that, but it can be argued that it will lead us down a more natural path of economic evolution.

Is it?

Yes it is.
If I give you a £10 note, you know you can go to the pub and buy 2 pints and some crisps.
If next month I give you another £10 you’ll be able to buy the same.

The whole point of a currency is that we all know what a £ is worth, and so it’s easy to exchange goods from one form to another.

If I wake up in the morning not knowing what by £10 note will worth, then any currency becomes worthless, and that is where cryptocurrency is currently, with all of the volatility.

Bitcoin as fallen by 6.85% in the past 24 hours, so now I’ll have to forgo those crisps…

I suspect this thread on wwq.singletrackworld.co.ng would be very different.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-s-usefulness-is-on-a-whole-other-level-depending-on-where-you-live

I’d take anything written on that site with a handful of salt…
It’s not particularly unbiased is it?

Worth looking at the ticker at the top.
All of the most popular cryptocurrencies are down 10-20% today.