lol @Rio not understanding cryptocurrency, value, use etc etc.

2015 wants your arguments back 🙂

Anyway. Added to holdings in projects that show a lot of promise during the dip. Nice return already. But, as with the rest, will HODL for the long term.

@Rio – No value creation? Are you for real? Ah the old ‘Ponzi Scheme’ chestnut. If that’s your perception then that’s your perception. I’ll continue as i am where i can see (and spend!) the value creation! 😉

Yep, keep pumping, the only way is up!

@Doris5000 – the tide is turning on the environmental problems with BTC with more and more miners turning to renewables and using things like hydros to power the mines. ETHv2 and beyond is promising to have an absolutely tiny to zero carbon footprint and others will have to follow.

yeah, but even if the electricity used for mining comes from ‘green’ sources, any electricity network still has finite amounts of generation capacity in it. So, if the miners ‘use’ green energy, all it means is that other users are pushed on to non-green electricity.

the UK wouldn’t have had all those coal free days last year, if the renewable electricity was being used by miners – they’d have had to keep the coal plants going to provide electricity for other users.

Unless the miners actually build extra green capacity solely for their use, they’re robbing peter to pay paul.

it’s greenwash.

Hey @hungymonkey – it’s a start though isn’t it?

My view is Bitcoin is pretty useless beyond a nice proof of concept that has intro’d the world to crypto. It will likely swing back to it’s pre pump price point of 20-30k and stay there doing not much long term.

Environmental concerns re crypto are bull and will all be resolved long term with Hydro and / or more efficient coins. Regulation is the best thing that can happen.

What are the most interesting defi projects people are looking at?

In terms of more stable investments if you are long crypto for me at today’s prices you have to be long Coinbase.

For security related stocks my faves are Crowdstrike and Okta. Dark trace in the UK but it’s early days and there are some unknowns for me.

@Rio – No value creation? Are you for real?

Feel free to enlighten us…..

Environmental concerns re crypto are bull

Fossil fuel power plant in NY state re-opens to power bitcoin mining data centre

New Bitcoin data centre in Montana will keep struggling coal plant burning

Some 20% of all BTC mining is done in Xinjiang thanks to cheap coal

They are literally re-opening mothballed coal power stations specifically to power BTC mining. You can say you don’t care about the environmental concerns, but you can’t say they’re bull. And yes, long term the entire world will be powered by renewables, but that’s not really an argument for the status quo.

Looks like China is also cracking down on mining….

The Inner Mongolia Development and Reform Commission said that it would set up a telephone hotline through which people could report suspected mining outfits as part of an effort to “comprehensively clean up and shut down” these operations.

https://www.ft.com/content/c26ef6bb-ed04-44a0-8ee0-5f7908e0d854

This pic of a bitcoin mining centre is pretty mental. Until relatively recently, I thought of it as something that a few tech nerds would have their spare room full of servers.

You can see why it makes it viable to arrange a deal for cheap leccy with a local coal plant now…

For balance, IOTA uses 0.00011 Kilowatt hour (KWh) consumed per transaction* where Bitcoin uses 707
According to this:
https://www.trgdatacenters.com/most-environment-friendly-cryptocurrencies/

No value creation? Are you for real?

Yep, no value creation.

If you buy a share in, let’s say, Rolls Royce, then they will create value because they turn engineering knowledge and raw materials into jet engines using specialised equipment.

Bitcoin miners turn electricity and IT knowledge, plus computer equipment, into, errrrr, a commodity that has no intrinsic value, just perceived value.

Since the beginning of their DOW Jones, the US stock market as compounded at an average of 10.8% a year. This is incredible. Just do this.

If, as an 18 year old, you put 200 quid a month into a index tracker Vanguard ISA, and assuming 8.8% instead of 10.8%,you’ll still have just over a million at age 60 and easily over 1.5m at 65.

Or stick it in Bitcoin.

@hugo so by your assessment the likes of Google and Facebook also have no value?

🤦

If you buy a share in, let’s say, Rolls Royce, then they will create value because they turn engineering knowledge and raw materials into jet engines using specialised equipment.

Given all the discussion of environmental impacts on the previous page, I’m not sure Rolls Royce is the best example here…

Google is an advertising company. It produces products that cause people to use them so they can advertise to them and shape their spending habits. They also have a range of IT products that they design and sell to people.

Facebook is also an advertising company. They create value by, again, advertise to people on a huge scale in exchange for supplying social networking and photo management.

I’m not sure what your point is, sorry.

Maybe, using a manufacturing example threw you? Companies products can be many things such as accountantancy, vetinary services or a modelling agency. The point is that they produce something that someone wants to use and buy.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic use or value.

You do know that that picture above is exactly what the data centre that hosts STW forum, any bank, music or streaming service will look like. They prob look worse 😂😂 They will also likely be in Ireland far away from any Hydro. Most likely powered by coal or gas, with a baby solar panel and wind turbine on the roof for good measure.

Look at the rate China are building Nuclear and Hydro. Why would they use coal if they can build a data centre next to a hydro station in the middle of nowhere. As a BTC miner you would be eaten by your competition that was next to unused hydro if you were paying for coal. As justification for EM to pump and dump and joke around it’s a great excuse. While I’m on that subject where do you think the majority of electricity in US / UK comes from to power Tesla’s? You guessed it…

where do you think the majority of electricity in US / UK comes from to power Tesla’s?

That argument used to hold water but doesn’t any more.

I’m 2010 the UK’s produced 6.5% of it’s energy from renewables.

In 2020 this was 40.2%.

Electric cars are clearly going to be better for the environment going forwards.

where do you think the majority of electricity in US / UK comes from to power Tesla’s?

Take a look live: https://grid.iamkate.com/

Currently 43.4% renewables..

The environmental arguments are red herrings by whiny little b1tches who don’t understand cryptographic technologies.

Have a look at how the ponzi scheme Hedera Hashgraph is doing nothing of value, at miniscule energy cost.

https://hedera.com/users/power-transition

The technology is potentially transformative. Those of you clapping China’s actions need to take a good hard look at yourself – you’re applauding an authoritarian state taking action to give it more control over it’s population. It’s not environmental reasons, or protecting it’s people reasons – it’s a murderous ideology trying to ensure it’s people are firmly under it’s thumb.

Central banks (the Fed is a *private company* btw – as is the BoE) have the same interest – we don’t actually need them for money issuance or control. In fact they’re simply money manipulators and printers (and the whole fiat ecosystem comes at a massive environmental cost anyway).

So forget the idiotic talk of ponzi schemes and tulips and the like and try to educate yourselves.

Or stay mugs. I don’t care really – I’m quids in on my last investment in the space – into cryptocurrencies like Hedera that add real quantifiable value and have fantastic transformational uses. Just like the future internet was transformational and only few could see that when it was invented by the american military back in the 1960’s as ARPANET.

The environmental arguments are red herrings by whiny little b1tches who don’t understand cryptographic technologies.

Again, please feel free to enlighten us….

The technology is potentially transformative.

Yep, but non of the current speculative coins are going to be transformative – they’re just going to go boom and bust whilst the rest of the world moves on.

Those of you clapping China’s actions need to take a good hard look at yourself – you’re applauding an authoritarian state taking action to give it more control over it’s population.

Wait till you find the UK does exactly the same! You might like to Google the Financial Conduct Agency, their job is to ban unsuitable / dubious investments to protect the UK from being ripped off / loosing money in Ponzi schemes etc. Which is exactly what China is doing with Crypto. China’s just a bit ahead of the curve and has it’s own digital currency which all traders are forced to accept. Pretty much killed off any chance of BC / Etherium / etc ever being used for real in China.

The environmental arguments are red herrings by whiny little b1tches who don’t understand cryptographic technologies.

Whereas you sound so rational & not at all like a preachy zealot…

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/video/2021/feb/25/why-bitcoin-is-so-bad-for-the-planet-video-explainer

Whereas you sound so rational

I didn’t like to say, but normally when someone resorts to insults it means they realise they’ve lost the argument but can’t admit it….

Bitcoin has no intrinsic use or value.

Spoken like a self appointed expert who truly has no understanding of cryptocurrency…. There is so much more than Bitcoin, Smart contracts, DeFi, Blockchain, NFTs, Gaming tokenization and betting, Oracle services, Supply chain, Ad tracking etc etc….

@footflaps – you quoted me and then said “why don’t you enlighten us” – and conveniently ignored the enlightening link to a project that is using a low-power cryptocurrency to manage energy trading – that could potentially be used globally.

Your argument is the same argument that’s been going on since crypto became a thing. You, like @mrlebowski, clearly have little idea of the breadth of programmes that are being worked on under the crypto umberella (Mr Lebowski has heard the term “bitcoin”, read a bit on the guardian and thinks that applies across the board).

My advice to you two would be – invest. Put a little of your hard earned money into a few cryptos that have interesting social, environmental or governance programmes running. That will be your incentive to learn about them. Get some skin in the game instead of sniping from the sidelines about subjects you clearly have very little knowledge about.

Bitcoin has no intrinsic use or value.

Spoken like a self appointed expert who truly has no understanding of cryptocurrency

Well you appear to be confusing BC and cryptocurrency. The latter can be very successful without BC being of any use whatsoever – in fact that is the most likely outcome eg China is rolling out their own digital currency and banning all others. The state backed scheme, which all shops / traders have to accept, will end up being used everyday by over 1 bn people for commerce – which is what cryptocurrencies were originall intended to be. BC is just a speculative asset reminsicant of tulip bulb mania (although to be fair at least a tulip bulb produces a tulip eventually).

Also, if you have managed to find the intrinsic value of BC, you should probably publish a paper on the subject, you’d become quite famous. 1000s of experts have tried and failed so far.

Don’t listen to those ‘whiny b1tches’, you made some money and that’s the main thing.

I love it when angry strangers on the internet tell others to educate themselves. And end up like you? Nah.

The environmental arguments are red herrings by whiny little b1tches.

oh dear.

@footflaps – you quoted me and then said “why don’t you enlighten us” – and conveniently ignored the enlightening link to a project that is using a low-power cryptocurrency to manage energy trading – that could potentially be used globally.

Most use cases for blockchain etc don’t really offer anything over a database and in most cases a simple dB would be better.

There are very few scenarios where you really need a public immutable ledger.

My main point is that the versions of crypto, Blockchain etc which gain wide spread adption won’t be any of the current speculative coins in existence as they are totally useless by virtue of being speculative assets. Eventually that will become obvious to enough people and most of them will end up worthless.

Yep, but non of the current speculative coins are going to be transformative – they’re just going to go boom and bust whilst the rest of the world moves on.

This care to enlighten us game works both ways; c’mon stump up the goods to back up the above statement. I’ve only taken an active interest in crypto this past month, so am open to both sides of the story.

tulip bulb mania

Just a myth, I’m afraid.

c’mon stump up the goods to back up the above statement.

So, the original idea behind Crypto came from the peculair anti big government mindset, popular in bits of the US. The idea was for a decentralised currency which no one government could control – this was the genesis of Bitcoin.

If you look at the main characteristics for a succesful, widely adopted currency e.g. easily tradable, highl liquid and good long term stability – BC and most of the other coins fail.

Instead what they have become is speculative assets, people ONLY buy them hoping to make a fast buck as the price rises – pretty much all economists agree that BC is a speculative asset right now – if you can’t see that / don’t agree fair enough, but you’re out on a limb.

However, this doesn’t mean that crypto is doomed, it just means that current inplementations have failed to achieve their orignal aim.

A good case in point in China, they have looked at BC etc and seen that digital currencies have a future but have fixed all the main problems by a) creating a new one b) having the Bank of China control it c) forcing all vendors in China to use it. Thus they get widespread adoption, price stability etc pretty much overnight.

What does this mean for BC etc? Simple, it will never gain widespread adoption in China. This is the future for digital money, state backed, regulated controlled currencies. Not what the original intention was for BC etc, but at least they actually work as currencies.

The environmental arguments are red herrings by whiny little b1tches who don’t understand cryptographic technologies.

I sense the word you’d understand best would be triggered.

The environmental cocerns are real whether you have a PhD in block chain technology or not.

who don’t understand cryptographic technologies.

When I read that phrase I always think thay means could you write the code to verify the blockchain from scratch. Whereas I suspect the OP might interpret ‘understand’ as being having watched a few YT videos hyping BC etc…

@Footflaps. You could think that. But you’d be wrong. Willy-waving on the internet doesn’t prove anything (like you, I could be making stuff up to win an internet argument) but I work in banking technology after a fairly long stint in the energy industry, so I kinda get paid to know about this stuff 🙂

If you look at the main characteristics for a succesful, widely adopted currency e.g. easily tradable, highl liquid and good long term stability – BC and most of the other coins fail.

It’s at the point now though where it’s accessible to people such as myself for whom Premium Bonds and ISAs were as close to investing as we’d ever thought we’d get. Getting an a/c on Coinbase and buying crypto is only slightly more difficult than getting an a/c on any other website where you can buy goods, the only differentiation is you are required to upload proof of ID documents.

Instead what they have become is speculative assets, people ONLY buy them hoping to make a fast buck as the price rises

Guilty a bit perhaps, although I never got into it thinking I’d be fast.

However, this doesn’t mean that crypto is doomed, it just means that current inplementations have failed to achieve their orignal aim.

I still feel you’re lumping them all together under BTC. I don’t understand enough about what they do do to provide any counter argument but from my limited understanding it seems they do offer ways of doing things which some people in society value (and I’m not talking about fraud/crime/scam). I still haven’t grasped it yet though. It’s a difficult subject to get a foot in the door of understanding.

Thanks for responding.

Feel free to enlighten us…..

I was recently following a thread on another forum where this was asked. They didn’t get an answer either. Makes you think…

Spoken like a self appointed expert who truly has no understanding of cryptocurrency….

Judging from your list I am not sure you can claim expertise.
Where do you think the key areas that blockchains will provide advantages.
As a currency its badly undermined by all the speculation so if you want it to be useful there how are you going to remove the wild price swings?

Most of the renewables in the UK are wind which is not constant or infinitely scalable.

When electric car usage scales it will quickly become a problem that can’t get outsourced to China like crypto.

Will prob start to drive some real innovation.

Anyone anyone using any interesting Defi products that they think will still be around in 5yrs?

Most of the renewables in the UK are wind which is not constant or infinitely scalable.

Currently wind has the lowest cost per GW for production and offshore wind is much more consistent than onshore, so it will be taking a larger and larger chunk of UK production over the next decade or so.