Help Ban 4x4s on Stanage + the Roych

Horses can cause much deeper holes.

Are you confusing horses with moles? Easy mistake in the dark. 😉

If they stick to the tracks get together and do some maintenance days and self police then let the 4×4’s enjoy their hobby.

Just going to leave this here to chime in with the 99% of the rest of this thread….won’t be supporting any such ban.

LOL! Nope.

Ban this ban that … why not ban human reproduction? They are bunch of maggots.

Bet the OP didn’t expect this!, oh a no I don’t support it,

Got the feeling this thread hasn’t gone quite how the OP expected. Perhaps we should get that nice Critical Mass spokesman to give him some tips on how to win an argument of this nature?

Quite fancy a LR 90 Defender for some green laning myself.

No.

Used to have a series 3 swb landrover about 10 years ago and it was tricky enough to find places to go legally then.

Saw the post count and thought I’d have to wade in in defence of the responsible off-road motorist. What a refreshingly open-minded thread, as you were 🙂

Also, this is an excellent point:

If you made mountain bikes all ride just the same 5% of the network (as opposed to 100%, plus trail centers, plus trails that don’t even officially exist) their ruts would be so deep there’d be lava in the bottom.

Rode round roych today and last sunday, just after a group of crossers had gone down it, yes it erroded and getting in a bit of a state but no looks no different to parts near the quarry. Why ban them? if on grounds of errosion the pony treking outfit would also have to go as after them the trails are in a state (if its wet) and they never close the gates or say hello when pulled over to side of trail.
Plus whos to blame for the climb to hollins cross? Should they be banned walkers and cyclists? The only negative for the moto cycles is the other sunday they were riding all over the place when the area was busy but we all only ride bridleways dont we ; )

A firm and steadfast NO

Especially given that 99% of the damage done to the RoW network is done BY WALKERS!

Why has “a bit muddy” become confused with “destroyed”???

I used to live near the ridgeway in Oxfordshire, and it was being “destroyed” constantly by 4×4’s apparently. So they banned them, and now, yup, still muddy, but now also a bit overgrown and impassable. Several old Drovers roads, with literally hundreds of years of continuous use and “access for all” have now been, or are in the process of being lost through non use. There is an ever growing number of people who only seem to have the “chocolate box” picture of the british countryside, picture perfect, sunny days, smooth green grass tracks dappled by the shade of beautifully proportioned greenery. Well, i have news for you, that ain’t how it is.
For example, say in 1750, 150 years before 4×4’s were invented, how muddy do you think the ridgeway was?? yup, pretty dam muddy. The difference to today? yup, you couldn’t drive your posh car into a nice clean tarmac carpark, and only have to walk 50 yards to get “into the countryside but then complain your impractical shoes got a bit muddy”. Mountains have been being eroded for millions of years, Norfolk used to look like the Himalayas, but so what. Mountains will be their long after all of us have been dead and buried for a long time.

So no, i won’t be signing your blinkered partition. The countryside is for everyone, no matter they creed, class or chosen form of transport. The National Parks were after all originally formed on the back of mass trespass to bring “access for all”, and i ain’t going to stand by an erosion (sic) of those principles just because a few tracks might be a bit muddy.

imo, the more we pave and “improve” the trails, tracks and passages on which we rove, the more we actually “destroy” the very thing we are trying to protect.

No chance, not signing

So it’s gone from a roadie convention to 4x4trackworld?!

I don’t like 4x4s for anything other than essential use (rescue, farming etc). We are different to people dicking about in silly big cars, I don’t think we need to be silent out of fear for being ‘next’.

This is specifically about 2 areas, I don’t know the Roych but have a strong fondness for Stanage as a climber. Anyone who’s wedged a limb into a gritty crevice will feel similarly, it’s a magical outcrop full of friction and fantasy. It’s a special place and I can see why people want to protect it.

On a lighter note…

Who said muddy? I said damaged

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IMG_0357[/url] by Will Slater[/url], on Flickr

That’s ROych clough – the thing the post is about. No mud there? That was a steep climb, but now has a massive step in it that 4*4s can’t get up, they’ve already had to put in a one-way system to allow for that

SOrry , but I just don’t get the whole “they’ll be coming for us next” thing. I understand that people drive 4*4s and it;s challenging and so on, but I can also see the damage it does

I’m not a fan of 4x4s and motocross bikes – they can cause more damage when used irresponsibly, they can spook dogs, kids and horses, again when used irresponsbily, but I won’t support a ban – they enjoy their hobby as best they can given the restrictions they have on access – same as we do.

And for the nay-sayers, yes, it could be the thin end of the wedge/us next. Give in to one intolerant group and it gets easier to give in to the next.

That’s ROych clough – the thing the post is about. No mud there? That was a steep climb, but now has a massive step in it that 4*4s can’t get up, they’ve already had to put in a one-way system to allow for that

That little step looks ace – shame endo boy didn’t know how to ride it 🙄

As for Stanage – who rides the track anyway? The Plantation is a million times better 8)

I signed it. Always going against the grain, me. It’s an illness.
Is that bloke up there deploying the Bail Out parachute? WTF are those wing things?

bah, the step would disappear under mighty wagon wheels of 29er-ness 😆

and no not signing for a ban.

Simon manc!

Thanks ever so much for pointing out the area. Can’t wait to spark up the defender next week and drive up for a pootle. Hadn’t heard of it before! 🙂

Just to dispell any confusion. The same groups campaigning to totally ban all mtotrists from these two lanes are the same ones that were instrumental in bringing in the NERC act. This legislation has lost a lot of access for mountainbikers already by virtue of a clause (sec 66) that prevents historical use of motorvehicles being used to count towards dedication of a route as a carriageway for other users. That means less Restricted Byways for cyclists.

After the ramblers the largest amount of claims to record rights of way came from the trailbikers.

There’s an element of extremists behind this that have power and influence way beyond their numbers. I’ve no doubt that they want to restrict mountainbikers further. The only reason they’re not doing so on lanes such as Stanadge is that they want to ban motorists first.

These routes have a rich heritage of motoring being part of the Edinburgh Trial for motorbikes that was first held in 1901. They’ve had over 100 years of recreational motoring and are in better condition than many routes that motors have never used.

One of the reasons the ban is being proposed is that “users find the sight of wheel tracks or anticipated presence of motorvehicles detracts from they’re enjoyment”.

Mountain bikes create wheel tracks and upset walkers by passing them.

Whatever ones views on motorists I suggest it would be wise to remind the Peak Park authority that ramblers don’t own the countryside.

Warms the cockles of me heart, this thread does. Mucho live and let live and only the odd nimby twunt. Love you all!

I’m just wondering, have any groups ever campaigned in favour of banning mountain bikes from public rights of way in the UK?

Dunno nbt I know it’s practically your backyard so you’ll feel strongly about it and the nazi quotes do sound a bit tinfoil hatish but its banning an already very marginalised group from yet more trails. Not sure how I feel about motorised trail use tbh, is it a valid countryside passtime or not? i dunno, but either ban em outright or give them some more trails but don’t chip away at it all until there’s 1 track left than close that cos it’s screwed. Doubt I’ll ever be marching for 4x4er’s rights but i’m uncomfortable helping hammer a nail into another trail users coffin

Can’t remember what’s Scotland’s take on motorised access?

It’s not covered by the SOAC, and like I say, in my experience the people paid to protect legal access wash their hands of it because they dont like it.

And if anyone’s interested, this article by Ed Douglas on the BMC web site’s seems to me like a balanced, informed look at the situation with 4x4s in the Peak.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/illegal-offroad-driving-peak-district

Bikers next? Sorry 1 ton of spinning wheels belching diesel and noise is very very different to a bicycle.

I have more respect for ramblers. They got US access in the first place up there in that area so stop yourfaux-scare mongering. Just be polite and interact instead of whirling past at speed

I cant believe the comments on here .Of course they should be banned from bridleways they have no right there and cause untold damage .We get them up on the Mendips on Blackdown and sometimes in the woods .Maybe if they could read maps they woyld ride legally on boats .rupps etc.Much of the time its council estate type scum on crossers who have no respect and ride there unnumber plated offroaders so you cant even tell the poloice the bike number

No, the current crop of redsocks are a very different breed to those that fought for access for all. These redsocks believe in access for their select few. It was their own grossly selfish activity that meant me and my friends had to stop taking disabled kids out greenlaning, the only chance they ever had to experience the countryside properly.

Edric we’re not talking about bridleways but historic roads. It’s all ready unlawful to drive down bridleways!

Edric 64 – Member

Of course they should be banned from bridleways

What have bridleways got to do with it?

Much of the time its council estate type scum

😯

No I won’t be signing as I’m scum!

Sorry, but no support from me.

There’s so many good tracks I know of, FP and BW, that ae used regularly by farm vehicles. Grren laners would ditribute their activities much more evenly if they were allowed on these routes too.

Much as i can’t bare the ‘first they came for….’ pricks who i guess seem to feel this issue is on par with the holocaust. I won’t be signing the OP’s petition, it’s (ime) just a few fat knackers in combats driving some 4×4’s around the countryside whilst listening to some pile of shite 70’s soft rock Clarkson cd. Whilst i doubt they think much more of me, they should have the same rights.

I’d rather petition against the plebs from the Peak Park who feel the need to sanitise Houndkirk & Burbage (oops, I shouldn’t be riding there, should I?) with thousands of tonnes of excitement deadening hardcore.

nbt – Member

Who said muddy? I said damaged

You say damaged, I say interesting.

But it’s kinda inevitable that people act like this. The real job in England is to open up more trails. Spread the wheel pressure, reduce wear and tear. Instead you’ve been pushed into a corner and you’re fighting with everyone else who’s been pushed there, trying to kick people out. But even if you manage that, you’ll still be stuck in the corner, just that you’ll have less allies to help you.

Have to say that I completely agree with the view here that bans are totally counterproductive. As for wear and tear, try walking ANY Munro in Scotland and some of the erosion damage is visible from miles away. What I have seen is a very well educated, vociferous and motivated “older” individual, totally overriding the needs of others, and should frankly piss of back to their golf courses and bowling greens!

When (trying) to chat civilly with three rangers I met on Snowdon at about 7pm on a summer’s evening, it transpired very quickly that in their eyes, the three metre wide motorway up the mountain was caused solely by erosion from cyclists (and not the million or so walkers each year).

I appreciate that’s slightly tangential to the thread, but as they couldn’t understand why on earth we’d want to be on Snowdon when they’d built teh Marin and Penmachno for us, supporting any ban of any user seems a pretty unwise thing to do as a mountain biker.

Zokes that analogy has no links to Roych as its alot quieter for walkers. the side erosion/widening on Roych is caused by cyclists* being unable to use the bridleway due the dangerous nature/condition now. Access should be everyone but would you ride a horse there safely? Let alone a bike?

Access for all but as soon as its repaired how long before its ruined again.

Is it fair to expect an average 68yr old rambler to walk down it safely?

Or the 50yr old hobby cyclist?

It isnt all for young angry gungho types you know.

*Witnessed it countless times

Hermann – I think the amount of erosion caused by climbers is outrageous on Stannage – maybe we should ban them too!!

NBT – loving that picture – maybe if he had less Lycra, proper grips instead of commuter comfort ones, did up his Camelbak, and kept both hands on his bars he could ride that route properly!!!!!

Don’t even get me started on horse damage to trails! The only reaso. Some of our local BW’s are useable is that bikers flatten out the huge hoof divots! But we have to live and let live. Round my way is the highest proportion of horses per capita in the country, and much as I curse their divots, I’ve never had any issue with the horse riders round here in East Sussex.

Apologies in advance, this is just my incoherent saturday morning thoughts!

Working in a RoW team of five (formerly nine, but thats another story) I’m depressed to know I’m the only one who isnt anti-offroader. Our network is less than 2% BOAT / R Byways, although we do have a fairly extensive network of UCR’s in the south of the county, which are (supposed to be) looked after by the Highways Department.

In reality this means they very rarely, if ever, have the correct amount of time and money spent on them, and I’ve now taken to keeping an eye on them myself voluntarily and reporting any problems to the area supervisor. TBH I’m embarassed in the state of some of them and the sheer lack of progress in getting problems sorted, so its no surprise that the public have given up us and stopped reporting them.

These routes in question are routes that can be legally used by motorised users and should remain available for future generations to do the same. I think this is a problem not of inappropriate use, but poor allocation of resources in repairing them (a bit like how road repairs are heading, instead of going a proper job in the first place they spend a day or so faffing about, then have to go out there every 6 months).

Plus there is an almost emotional aspect I think to this work, you have to care about what you do and think how it affects the user, just going out with 20 tonnes of hardcore and cover over the ruts and think it a job done, just think about it more. I dunno.

There is an almost unwritten, untalked about pro-rambler (which is subtly different to anti-4×4, but the end results are the same) mind-set that is gently increasing in RoW departments; every week we get correspondence from them ingratiating themselves by offering to assume responsibity / control in our day-to-day work – infact a few days ago the Ramblers sent around a nice glossy brochure suggesting they could take over management of National Trails completely, so don’t be surprised if in a few years this happens. I digress though.

IMO the more routes you restrict you a) concentrate existing users into less routes and / or b) p*ss off the motorised user so much they ignore the TRO anyway and you loose whatever good will there is. I’d like to see more routes having BOAT status, but I’m afraid thats never going to happen.

What is the solution? I don’t know, but increasing TRO’s like the Peak District is NOT the answer.

Speaking personally, I see a group with broadly similar outlooks to mine, being increasingly marginalised and I don’t like it one little bit.

:sad shrug smilie:

[edit]

as to the TRO’s themselves, why are they doing it? with respect to my colleagues there, I suspect its because they can’t really think of anything better “sorting this out is too complicated so lets just put a TRO on it and ban them”.

if it was me i’d get the user groups together and get them to figure it out. When they’ve decided what to do, I’ll get it sorted out.