Guns don't kill people

Got told earlier that the company that makes the weapon chap used (a Bushmaster AR clone) has investment from the Californian Teachers’ Union pension fund. They’ve withdrawn their funding/support – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20770290

I agree with them from an ethical position, despite personally liking their weapons from a technical and professional standpoint, but this does highlight one possible way that America could change. If the manufacture and retail of firearms became financially unsustainable, then there would be no option. That would also fit into their free market ethos.

An alternative could be to continue the status quo, but require NRA membership for all gun owners and then make the NRA financially and legally liable for each and every death as a result of a legally held firearm. That should stop any lobbying pretty damn quickly.

Is it really your view that playing violent computer games is as likely to skew your view or desensitise you to violence as is eating a packet of crisps.

Sure. I’ve done both, and I’m no more violent than when I started.

Its clear that playing violent computer games will have some affect on you so lets debate what if that is where the debate is going.

Is it? Says who? Got any evidence of that?

FWIW locally someone dug up a corpse froma graveyard, took the head and scrawled 666 on the head and dropped it on his mates door rang the doorbell and ran off. he did this after he saw Omen.

Then he was a nutcase; my point still stands. I’ve seen The Omen and I’ve never been tempted to take a spade to the nearest graveyard. If he hadn’t seen The Omen, he’d have listened to Iron Maiden and we’d still be having the same discussion. He’s bonkers in the nut.

and he was off his head on glue

Bingo. The problem here isn’t scary movies, it’s Bostick.

Kids ARE impressionable, which means they need to be taught the difference between right and wrong

I think perhaps you don’t give kids enough credit.

Banning guns or stopping the sale would not remove the problem now. But it might start making a dent in things for 50 or 100 years down the line. That seems a good enough reason to me to make a start.

By then you’ll have a lot of old, unsafe weapons.

he did this after he saw Omen.

Now the guy was a nutter[like that needed saying], and he was off his head on glue

The question is, if he had done the last two things and not watched Omen, would he have done something else equally disturbed? It’s not really possible to blame the movie in this case.

So you agree it makes them aggressive but don’t agree that it desensitises them to violence?

I think that video games and movies change a child’s mood within the parameters of the child’s normal behaviour. I have shot countless baddies in video games, but if you took me outside and beat a gangster to death with a baseball bat in front of me, I’d still be shocked, because I am non-violent and therefore such things are outside the scope of my normal behaviour. I suspect that most kids would feel the same way.

However there are some kids who’d get a thrill out of seeing it, I’m sure – but I don’t think playing COD would change that. Because COD or GTA are not real violence. When real people are present, most people’s brains react pretty differently to when a picture of a non-real person is present.

Now there are people who don’t have enough empathy to respond to the suffering of others. I would say the perpetrators of most mass killings would fall into that category. I strongly doubt that the playing of COD would actually move someone into that category.

Kids DO indeed need to be taught the difference between right and wrong. Killing real people = wrong, playing COD = ok.

it’s not an extreme position to think that guns are inanimate,they are

Have you ever held or shot a gun? Ever seen someone walking around carrying one? Did it have an emotional effect on you? It does on most people. Does holding a tennis racket have a similar effect? I’d suspect not.

Just read this,

how real this is and what effect it has who knows in terms of what we are discussing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobo_doll_experiment

That’s nothing to do with violence, it’s Pavlov’s Dog. Also, the age range in the experiment is 3-6; I’m not sure as it’s fair to compare the responses of preschoolers when we’re discussing 18-certificate games.

Put it another way; which are we actually discussing? The effect of the influences of violent media on “impressionable” teenagers, or “impressionable” pre-schoolers? Only, I expect they’re different situations and I’m not aware of any pre-schoolers who went on rampages with assault rifles. Exposure to inappropriate material for a given age range is a whole other can of worms.

The thing you have to ask yourselves is what is a mother of two doing owning such a collection and answer the question why? What pleasure, security sense, or logic dictated that she have them in her home.

So it’s not just the technical feature of the instrument, it is the glorification of it’s use.
A lot of us are probably watching movies in which they feature right now.

So we educate ourselves and our kids from the word go that they (guns) are exciting, give pleasure/thrill/satisfy various human senses, so until we stop doing that as a race, it is never going to end.

Yes, almost certainly movie and video game violence warp the perception of the weak minded, it warps the perception of some stronger minds, were it not the case movies like Rambo, Die Hard, Bond etc wouldn’t be the cash earners that they are.

So you either eradicate all that, or accept what we have, risk assess and put more safeguards in place, like armed security in schools.

The US is the home of violent movies and the glamourisation of death and violence, it’s actually surprising there are not more incidents like this.

Sure. I’ve done both, and I’m no more violent than when I started.

I have drunk alcohol and gambled but i am no different so I can only assume that its the same for everyone and we have no problem drinkers or alcoholics – anecdote is not evidence – AGAIN I am not saying playing these games turns you in to a murdering monster.

Its clear that playing violent computer games will have some affect on you so lets debate what if that is where the debate is going.

Is it? Says who? Got any evidence of that?

Are you better than you were when you started there you go an effect 🙄
Shall we discuss what they are now?

Then he was a nutcase; my point still stands. I’ve seen The Omen and I’ve never been tempted to take a spade to the nearest graveyard. If he hadn’t seen The Omen, he’d have listened to Iron Maiden and we’d still be having the same discussion. He’s bonkers in the nut.

Agred but it still remains that and I quote

Now the guy was a nutter[like that needed saying], and he was off his head on glue but it was an interaction between all three.

Now imagine he could get guns and he played violent computer games

All your points stand but we have a murder spree- as to how much influence each was who knows- the easiest to remove would be the guns I presume.

Its not one or the other but an interaction that is my point.

As far as i can see no one is saying anyone other than nutters do this, no one is saying computer games makes you nutters so I dont why you are spending so much time defeating this argument and ignoring the point being made.

The question is, if he had done the last two things and not watched Omen, would he have done something else equally disturbed? It’s not really possible to blame the movie in this case.

I am not “blaming it” but its hard to argue it did not influence his behaviour as it did.

Would he have done something if we remove any one of these – in all honesty I dont know but I agree the film is ,probably, the least influential of the three.

Blaming films and video games for violence is an easy cop out and means they don’t have to deal with the real, difficult issues.

Humans have been committing acts of violence against one another since the year zero and has nothing to do with video, music, fighting fantasy books, or whatever crutch you like to use to prop up your waifer thin arguments.

Stop burying your head in the sand.

Now imagine he could get guns and he played violent computer games

Any different?

Ugh, read through all this and all I can say is that you have waved a red flag to gun nut Zulu 11 so he can post stuff in an attempt to deflect you from the main issue.

Some of you need shooting for that. 8)

Edukator criminal profiling is one of the dodgiest professions on the planet in terms of quackery. Psychology isnt exactly one of the most robust disciplines either and is very open to quackery and new fads.

Even if mass killers can be shown to be more likely play violent video games, its a leap of faith to assume this causes their behaviour instead of being a symptom of their underlying pathology. Im sure canucks play just as much cod as yanks so why are they not killing each other to the same degree?

As others have pointed out most of the games were talking about are 18 rated, this is not the age where the idea of right and wrong are formed…..they already have been and if that individual is incapable of differentiatig between reality and video games then they already need to be sectioned.

Its a seriously warped viewpoint that blames games instead of guns for deaths like these.

Cougar – Member

As an aside, I wonder how this discussion will go in a few years time, when games are photorealistic? We’re getting there.

It’ll go all uncanny valley and the desensitisation/crossing of real/imaginary world boundaries argument will make even less sense.

A report on Europe 1 this morning on a massive increase in assault rifle sales in the US. The journalist was in a gun shop. The boss said sales were over double normal. The client said he was buying that particular gun because it was used by the American army and he used it in COD.

BDs (or bédé =bande dessinée) are popular over here. Drop into a shop and you’ll find a huge variety including an erotic section. Presumably clients find drawn images just as erotic as real people. Then there’s Lara croft. I don’t seee that drawn or computer generated images are any less powerful than film. They are perhaps more powerful as the only limit to behaviour is the artist’s imagination.

The Shades of Gray/erotic theme I’ve chosen as the Yanks are so keen on limiting public access to anything saucy. Watch an under 18 American film and you definitely won’t see any sex, just lots of people being gunned down. I bought a DVD with a universal certificiate, after the third or fourth brutal killing I took it out of the machine, cut it up and threw it in the bin. Not family viewing IMO.

The Yanks are scared of sex but glorify killing in every form of media. We are being contaminated – resist. Don’t be copycats.

I couldn’t get enough shagging after seeing my first porn movie.

The client said he was buying that particular gun because it was used by the American army and he used it in COD.

But at the risk of repeating myself, “so what?” People buy stuff they think is cool; in the US, guns are cool. When 24 was on TV, we sold a boatload of Cisco IP phones (and had a lot of complaints because they didn’t have the CTU ringtone). But, repeating myself again, there’s a world of difference between buying something that’s “cool” and strolling into a primary school with automatic weaponry. (And incidentally, you’ll have to point me towards Grand Murder Preschool, I must have missed that game.)

I bought a DVD with a universal certificiate, after the third or fourth brutal killing

Eh? What film that?

Guns are banned in China so the weapon of choice is a knife. When people want to kill, they will find a way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_%282010%E2%80%932011%29

Good info here,

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/12/18/beyond-symbolism-protecting-the-children/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MassadAyoob+%28Massad+Ayoob%29

I think the comparison between the US and Israel with regard to firearms is a little… strained.

Whilst Israel is certainly a paranoid country with a lot of armed civilians, they are, to a certain extent, correct in their paranoia (i.e. that everyone in their area pretty much is out to get them). They have also, pretty much without exception, been trained to use the firearms that they carry to a professional level. By professional I mean military.

The US in comparison seems to have little in the way of formal training for its gun owners, simply allowing a background check and a valid credit card or cash. Some of the gun owner I know in the US I would not want owning a firearm, but that’s just my personal opinion. I’m also not saying that every gun owner in the US is a raving nutter survivalist with anti-establishment leanings, just that the few that are, that make the 2nd amendment argument every time someone threatens to take their toys away, make them appear to be.

Tell No One (Ne le dis à Personne), Guillaume Canet.

The Anders Breivik case revealed a lot to those who followed it. A sample size of one you’ll retort, Bwaarp. Apart from being a killerspiel gamer he listed his favourite films as Gladiator 300 and Dogville by Lars von Trier, the final scenes of which Lars himself said bore a troubling resemblance to the events on the island.

Comedy gold leaps of logic posters from Brainflex. 😆

Irrespective of computer games, movies, and the whole debate about whether a killer will always find another way of killing, I can’t see any defence for the sale of assault rifles. I’m trained to use one, they typically have a 30 round magazine and fire high velocity rounds in automatic or semi automatic modes. They are designed for putting a lot of ammunition down, fast. In semi-automatic mode, in a crowded space, I think a decent shot could kill 15-20 people before having to reload. There is no other weapon that provides that capability, so while your mass shootings may still have happened, less people would have died. There is no justification for them from a hunting perspective either; you get one shot at a deer, and if you miss it buggers off. They are for the military, so why sell them to the public? So the citizenry can fight off the military? Even though they’ve got all the tanks, planes and ships?

Population of Israel=7 million. Deaths=8.

Population of USA=315 million. Deaths=323.

Let’s work the percentages, shall we?

I don’t seee that drawn or computer generated images are any less powerful than film

Whoah.. have you ever actually played any of these computer games you know so much about? I cannot imagine how anyone who has would say something like that.

There is no justification for them from a hunting perspective either;

Pretty sure you’re not allowed to hunt with automatic or semi automatic weapons – not in Wisconsin at least.

Apart from being a killerspiel gamer he listed his favourite films as Gladiator 300 and Dogville by Lars von Trier

Right, but did he like those movies because he had violent tendencies, or did he have violent tendencies because he watched the movies?

I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn’t watched the films and played the games. I think not.

The film industry always denies any causal effect but then what else would you expect from the film industy. Did you really expect Oliver Stone to say “oh dear, all those killers did exactly what my actors did in the film”. Of couse he won’t, if only because doing so might well land him in jail.

Films have been blamed for everything from serial killings to a spate of attacks on gas stations and dismissing the copycat element a little head int he sand. Did any cinemas get attacked at the first showing of Bambi or Toy Story? No. Would you expect them to? No. Did a cinema get attacked at the opening of Batman? Yes. Was I surprised? No.

Tetris didn’t make me want to become a bricky
GTA didn’t make me want to rob cars
COD didn’t make me want to shoot people
populous didn’t make me want to be god
Borat didn’t make me want to strangle sacha baron cohen with his own intestines
Star wars didn’t make me want to push things/people around with the force and wield a lightsabre

(I may not have been entirely truthful here)

COD et al are 18 games iirc, stopping kids playing them would probably be a good idea, but no I don’t think they make you a murderer.

I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn’t watched the films and played the games

But he could have dreamed up other crimes easily enough, surely? Are you suggesting we remove all reference to crime and wrongdoing from our culture? Ban Dostoyevsky?

Very simplistic to assume that copycat crimes would not happen if it weren’t for the things in films. Crimes happened before films were invented of course. And people still talked about them a lot, so everyone knew about them anyway.

I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn’t watched the films and played the games. I think not.

Gotta disagree with that. Surely someone like the Jack The Ripper didn’t have access to a time-travelled television or some such…

Interesting that you should mention Jack the Ripper, Teasel. The press coverage and copycat killings linked to Jack are at the origins of the term”copycat crimes”.(look at what are numbers one and two)

Indeed. Chicken and egg and all that…

Now imagine he could get guns and he played violent computer games
Any different?

and from the real world rather than the hypothetical imagine he does not watch the Omen any different now?
As I have given you an example and Edukator has mentioned coppycat killings the question still remains as to how much influence exposure has

Its a seriously warped viewpoint that blames games instead of guns for deaths like these.

Not seen anyone do this just lots of folk claim this.

But, repeating myself again, there’s a world of difference between buying something that’s “cool” and strolling into a primary school with automatic weaponry.

You are right but we have just given you another example of fiction affecting reality.

We seem to be getting to a point where we can discuss how much influence it has rather than if

(And incidentally, you’ll have to point me towards Grand Murder Preschool, I must have missed that game.)

Thanks for the extremism again – any chance we can discuss the middle ground rather than keep doing this 🙄

When people want to kill, they will find a way.

So best that they have really crap weapons an argument for gun control

COD et al are 18 games iirc, stopping kids playing them would probably be a good idea, but no I don’t think they make you a murderer.

They certainly do not for the vast majority of folk but we dont really know what effect they have on those on the margins of sanity.
Most folk drink without ending up as a homeless alcoholic sleeping on the streets but that is what happens to some folk. Would they have done that without alcohol – probably not.
In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer games my view being it has an affect and its unlikely to be helpful and unlikely to be anything to worry about for 99.999999% of the population.

But he could have dreamed up other crimes easily enough, surely

Very simplistic to assume that copycat crimes would not happen if it weren’t for the things in films. Crimes happened before films were invented of course. And people still talked about them a lot, so everyone knew about them anyway.

Yes but we have folk who copy things they have read heard or seen which is rather the point of this debate.
Would they have done them without the info – I dont actually know as I would have to guess.

I dont think anyone is saying if you watch x film/game whatever for x long then you will kill y people

Even the nay sayers can cite examples of fiction affecting behaviour whilst argue against it affecting behaviour.

To claim it must be all or nothing is silly and to work out how much influence it has is nigh on impossible.

In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer games

True, nor do we know how much people are affected by their parents shouting at them, losing their job, or anything else that can happen to a person.

Films have been blamed for everything

Sure. So has Elvis. It’s easy to point the finger, doesn’t mean there’s actually a causal link.

and from the real world rather than the hypothetical imagine he does not watch the Omen any different now?

You tell me, it’s not my anecdote. What I’m getting at is, it’s disingenuous to say that a nutter on glue with a gun did something crazy and in the same breath add “and played computer games” or “and watched horror films.” He may also have worn a green shirt, does that mean we need to have a crackdown on khaki? Just because x did y and z does not necessarily mean x did y because of z, you can’t just automatically imply / assume a causal link.

It’s probably fair to say that media (games / movies) influence behaviour. That’s how product placement works. It’s probably also fair to say that the very very young may be confused by adult-oriented media (which they shouldn’t have access to anyway); this is where the “right from wrong” argument may hold some water. And it’s probably correct that the sort of lunatic who’s going to go mad with an SMG is also likely to be attracted to violent media.

But. And it’s a big but. You cannot simply roll all those statements together into one and conclude that violent games / movies cause otherwise well adjusted adults to commit murder. You just can’t. If someone’s a nutcase to start with, their trigger could be anything; computer games, road rage, watching Coronation Street, the local ASDA running out of beans.

Thanks for the extremism again – any chance we can discuss the middle ground rather than keep doing this

You keep saying this, and will probably think it again for my previous paragraphs, but I don’t think it’s particularly fair. There’s a suggestion that somehow these tragedies are ‘copycat’ crimes, that people are recreating scenes in games. My point (in what I thought was a light-hearted manner) is simply, there’s no game I’m aware of which portrays high school massacres. It’s a straw man.

In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer games

True, nor do we know how much people are affected by their parents shouting at them, losing their job, or anything else that can happen to a person.

I seem to remember the 70’s (i.e.a time before games) as being much more violent in the UK e.g. bank holidays on brighton beach, football hooligans and general ‘tooled’ up violence. At a time when T.V. and video violence was quite controlled (some would’ve said repressed) by the government/social mores of the time.
There was also more social upheaval and more of a macho culture at the time.

So I think the question of whether violent computer games have made society more violent is (very) moot.

I think you’re on to something. We should ban football.

a macho culture

Well this is a big one. Macho culture seems to create an awful lot of violence. However I am not sure how much it contributes to incidence of psychopathology.

You tell me, it’s not my anecdote.

My examples are evidence only yours are anecdote 😉

Yes its very much like the khaki example you gave almost identical- I mean no one has committed a spree naked so its clothes right – that is basically what i am saying 🙄

It’s probably fair to say that media (games / movies) influence behaviour. That’s how product placement works. It’s probably also fair to say that the very very young may be confused by adult-oriented media (which they shouldn’t have access to anyway); this is where the “right from wrong” argument may hold some water. And it’s probably correct that the sort of lunatic who’s going to go mad with an SMG is also likely to be attracted to violent media.

Finally the middle ground – yes i agree but beyond that we dont really knwo how mcuh ot triggers and how much it leads. I am not a fan of steeping stone theories that one thing leads to another. I accept that , currently, we dont know.

You cannot simply roll all those statements together into one and conclude that violent games / movies cause otherwise well adjusted adults to commit murder.

Can you quote me doing that ? Anyone on this thread doing that
Why do folk keep saying this? we all know this, no one has claimed it, yet every post its gets repeated

Seems to be pretty much Edukator’s argument, unless I’m misreading.

I tend to not read his posts so you may be correct- he seemed to think i was always having a go so i largely stopped reading [ no offence edukator]

never seen the liberal logic 101 site before a real intelect free zone.

Guns don’t kill people, nutters antisocial and honestly mistaken people kill people using guns. You can’t change human nature certainly not before you have identified the character flaw so take the guns out of the equation and make the nutters etc less dangerous.

Brainflex – Member

Guns are banned in China so the weapon of choice is a knife. When people want to kill, they will find a way.

On the other hand… There are 10 cases in your article there, and 21 dead. As opposed to one person killing 26.