Greenland and Brexit

Since Brexit, there has been (perhaps wishful) thinking among some that we should not have had our European citizenship stripped away from us on the basis of the referendum. As much as I agree with this, and support the legal attempt to get our citizenship back despite the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, I have never really though it possible. That said, I wasn’t aware that Greenland had voted against being a member of the European states, but that they had retained their EU citizenship.

Is there precedent in this case for the UK?

NB. I really, really don’t wish to re-open another Brexit thread. I am asking about the legal issue ONLY.

It’s possible that some sort of compromise membership could have been negotiated if all sides had been willing.

How would UK citizens retaining EU membership work? The EU would want reciprocity and at that point you have the Brexiters frothing about their favourite nonsense of “taking back control of our borders”.

We just have to wait until enough politicians realize that trying to pretend that Brexit was anything other than a colossal mistake just makes them look foolish

We just have to wait until enough politicians realize that trying to pretend that Brexit was anything other than a colossal mistake just makes them look foolish

Isn’t it going the other way though……….more and more politicians accepting this “colossal mistake”?

Is there precedent in this case for the UK?

Doesn’t Greenland have some weird* relationship with Denmark? I think for most things Greenland is [semi] antonymous but things like foreign relation and passports (maybe I think) they’re Danish, so they get to keep, by way of that relationship, their EU citizenship?

* technical-legal term

NB. I really, really don’t wish to re-open another Brexit thread. I am asking about the legal issue ONLY.

There were various proposals along those lines and it was what some of the brexiteers had been promising before the referendum. The obvious stumbling block would be reciprocal access would have been required and that would not have been acceptable to a lot of the brexiteers.

In terms of legality and carrying across the precedent I think the stumbling block would be the fact Greenlanders are Danish citizens as well so it could just fall under that. Same as how NI citizens can keep their EU citizenship by exercising their dual nationality.

the code is more what you’d call “guidelines” than actual rules.

you have the Brexiters frothing about their favourite nonsense of “taking back control of our borders”

Well, that’s how it could work… by ignoring those people. We could be a partner with all the other states, without being a member, with reciprocal agreements for all our citizens. But our political leaders (including the leaders of both the big UK wide parties) felt that Freedom of Movement had to end as a result of a vote not to be a member country any more. Scared of the “frothers”… or saw it as a path to gaining/holding power… or really wanted that for the UK all along? Who knows… but the result is what we have now.

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They are all Danish citizen on Greenland.

NB. I really, really don’t wish to re-open another Brexit thread. I am asking about the legal issue ONLY.

Well i really do wish you the best of (british?) luck with that one.

Mikkel
Free Member
They are all Danish citizen on Greenland.

Probably the crux of it. Fortunately a nice short, easy thread on Brexit – bravo!

No precedent.  Did you read the wiki think you linked to?  You’d need to be an overseas colony or similar, so unless you want the UK  to be an overseas colony of France, or Belgium, it’s not applicable.

And that will be a tough sell

Or Ireland?

In England/Scot/Wales, we don’t have a path to EU citizenship. The precedents are the people of Iceland, Norwegians and the Swiss for what we could have had post Brexit, if we weren’t being run for the benefit of the loud minority against such freedoms.

There isn’t a precedent until there is. Everything is possible as the rules can be changed.

Since Brexit, there has been (perhaps wishful) thinking among some that we should not have had our European citizenship stripped away from us on the basis of the referendum.

IMHO it’s actually worse for us that physically left the U.K. to live in an E.U. Country as our rights are now restricted to our ‘host’ country.

Years after Brexit  i’m still in limbo, can’t leave Spain without losing my residency application and can’t hold a Spanish driving licence as you require a residency and they don’t recognise a U.K. driving licence after six months in Spain so can’t legally drive.

Not wishing to be a Brexit martyr but there’s lots of weird gotchas that you can fall into through no  fault of your own making.

Unfortunately this is “have your cake and eat it” territory, EU passports/equivalent freedom of movement and other individual rights for UK citizens would have required closer alignment/cooperation on other points. Which of course ‘We’ weren’t willing/able to negotiate for.

The negotiations are done, any changes to the agreements will now be from the (far weaker) position of the UK as a non-member state having to offer up closer alignment on various things to score a bit of preferential treatment. At which point EU membership starts to look more appealing perhaps?

Greenland is an edge case, the UK is still a basket case, why would the EU offer us anything now?

would have required closer alignment/cooperation on other points

Which would be bad because…?

There isn’t really such a thing as standalone EU citizenship. There’s only citizenship of a state that is a member of the EU. Denmark is a member of the EU and Greenlanders are Danish citizens. Greenland is not a country.

“Greenland is not a country.”

Grenland is not a sovereign state would be a better way of looking at it – see Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Which would be bad because…?

It wouldn’t.
My point was, that negotiations are a ship that has unfortunately sailed…
Now we’re on the outside looking in so any ‘precedent’ you might find is even less applicable.

If you want an EU passport and happen to be a citizen of the UK, unearthing some long lost Irish ancestors is probably your best bet now from what I’ve been told…

IMHO it’s actually worse for us that physically left the U.K. to live in an E.U. Country as our rights are now restricted to our ‘host’ country.

This was what I was fearful of had I not got German citizenship….. The right to stay and work only in Germany.

No chance of moving around within Europe for work in neighbouring countries, no extended periods outside of Germany in other EU countries…. I think I would have felt incredibly trapped.

Years after Brexit i’m still in limbo, can’t leave Spain without losing my residency application and can’t hold a Spanish driving licence as you require a residency and they don’t recognise a U.K. driving licence after six months in Spain so can’t legally drive.

Can’t you apply for Spanish citizenship? What ties you do much to having/keeping your UK passport?

I’m very fortunate that I got my application in “in time” and now have dual citizenship, but had I not, then my option would have been to become a full German and renounce my UK passport….. And I would have done it, too.

Know of a few other Brits that are “trapped” because they don’t want to relinquish their UK citizenship.

I know people living in Germany facing the citizenship dilemma now, you were lucky to have been there early enough and right to firm up your status when you did.

I know people living in Germany facing the citizenship dilemma now, you were lucky to have been there early enough and right to firm up your status when you did.

**** yeah!

Now making the most of my new passport travelling around Europe.

Have met a few Brits on the road and I’m always saddened to hear about their dash home or to another non-Eu/Schengen country before their 90 days are up.

Equally they’re often confused/shocked when I tell them in my cockney/Essex accent I’ve been on the road, in Europe, for the past 18 months because I’m German.

There is a court case going thru at the moment.   Bit of a long shot but thete is no mechanism for removing eu citizenship so how can millions of us have had it taken away without our consent?  Lost in lower courts.  Appeals working thru process.

Iirc Greenland has a very specific half in half out relationship with the EU.  Some odd compromise fudged deal

The only real lesson you can learn from Greenland is that the EU is completely happy to fudge things to get a decent result. There’s rules that can’t be messed with but there’s also a lot of stuff that is outside the scope or intention.

If I still lived in the UK I would be demanding that we become an overseas colony of France. I’m sure no one would mind if M. Macron could arrange for all the roads in Britain to be fixed up like the ones round here. So smooth.

“Grenland is not a sovereign state would be a better way of looking at it – see Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.”

The Scotch and Welsh usage of “country” to mean something different is highly (cough) aspirational, and even then only within the context of GB. But sure – Greenland is just as much a country as Wales…or Northern Ireland 😆

How would UK citizens retaining EU membership work? The EU would want reciprocity and at that point you have the Brexiters frothing about their favourite nonsense of “taking back control of our borders”.

As an EU cicitzen having lived in the UK some 15+ years that would certainly be my view – eg why should UK citizen have an advantage relative to EU citizens?

As a “Brit” living in an EU country who voted to remain it would be nice to have an EU passport. I didn’t give up on the EU.

I’m just going to have to spend the cash to become an EU local I guess

I’m just going to have to spend the cash to become an EU local I guess

Where abouts are you?

In 2019 it cost me about 250€ in Germany. Money well spent.

As an aside, Germany now only requires five years of residency before you can apply and will likely be shortening that to three years! (eight was required when I applied, although I had been there for 11 years.)

If your kids are looking at university it might be worth considering a German university. Lots of the courses are in English.

why should UK citizen have an advantage relative to EU citizens?

They shouldn’t. It should be reciprocated. But remember there are many people who retain both EU & UK citizenship, in NI, in UK, and in EU states. They have advantages over everyone else. Plenty in my family as it happens. Just formalise it for all of us… at the price of what… governments having to cooperate and reduce some of their arbitrary controls over us…? Boo hoo, what a shame.

We’ll join again eventually, the politicians (which means all sides!) will change their minds as soon as there’s enough public support for it. But sadly there isn’t at the moment.

If my company didn’t insist on us going into the office on two days a week, I’d be taking up a remote worker visa… 🙁

I really need to get my Cypriot papers done. Then I’m free to still sit here in the rain dreaming of living by the sea and not doing it, but at the same time moaning.

It was 20 years back but French nationality cost very little, just the cost of a couple of translations.

As I have no UK proof of identity I use my French passport to prove I’m British on the British government web sites. It all works fine still as there are treaties between Britain and France on dual nationals which have survived Brexit.

My Irish passport cost less than renewing a British one. Assuming that stays the same I won’t be renewing.

We’ll join again eventually, the politicians (which means all sides!) will change their minds as soon as there’s enough public support for it. But sadly there isn’t at the moment.

Sadly I don’t think it will be for a while yet, and that requires a Government willing and able to take on the culture warriors that tricked the masses out, I can’t see the next government having the will or bandwidth to take it on.

I reckon it’s 15 years (three more parliaments) before it’s even credible for front line politicians of any stripe to propose the idea.

And then re-joining will have it’s own challenges, we’ll be treated like any new applicant previously being a founding member nation will carry little weight.

But the UK wasn’t a founding member and De Gaulle said no first try.

There isn’t a precedent until there is. Everything is possible as the rules can be changed.

As I always remind Scottish Unionists when they say that Scotland will never be allowed into the EU, “politics trumps everything”.

“The Scotch and Welsh usage of “country” to mean something different is highly (cough) aspirational,”

This is a circular argument no? If they are using it to mean something different, then no aspiration is needed. As with all meaning, it depends on context, you could pick another word, say “nation”, but I really don’t see how that would help. There are those in FIFA and UEFA who think the home nations should not compete separately, but for football purposes they are separate [insert label of choice here]. I think it all stems from the idea (a bit of a fiction really) that the UK is a union of nations, so just like the UK could leave the EU, so the nations can leave the UK. Cameron accepted this when he offered Scotland an independence referendum which did not require any consent from the rest of the UK. That is a constitutional fact, not an aspiration. By contrast, according to the Spanish government, Catalonia can only leave with the consent of the whole of Spain. Although on the ground, the Spanish regions, US states, the German Lande etc. have more autonomy in some respects than the UK devolved administrations.