Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick

@BadlyWiredDog testing Gore’s new Bavarian products yesterday:

I thought I’d taken that picture down 🙁

A few years ago, Aldi/Lidl had some cycling “breathable” soft shells on their middle aisle for silly money.

I used it twice before binning it, it was so damp and uncomfortable, and that was when it wasn’t raining.

I’m ignorant of the tech here. But it seems to me that “stopping water coming in” and “letting water get out” is something of a dichotomy. We want, what, a one-way fabric?

blokeuptheroad makes the most sense to me here, vents in places where you’re not going to get rain ingress in order to allow your own ming to escape. I have a Cheshire Oaks factory outlet special North Face coat which is 15 years old if it’s a day. It’s HyVent or something. It is, TBH, past its best now and any ‘beading’ is a distant memory. But it still works because there’s bloody great vents under the armpits and I wear a long-sleeved wicking layer underneath it.

Layering with functional fabrics that cope with getting wet; remove layers as you heat up rather than sweating buckets; outer windproof layer; competent but not stupidly priced shell for when it gets very unpleasant (more to preserve core warmth and reduce wind-chill than absolute waterproofing). This is particularly true for an activity that generates lots of energy (not e-biking, then) where the garment is frequently dirty. Like at least one of the other posters I’m using an Outdry jacket (bought in 2018 for about £90 iirc) that’s been spot on for MTB use; it’s a pity Columbia never developed the fabric technology or improved the features (hood design) of this range, and now seem to have moved on from it.

The video is awful. Full of half truths and some outright nonsense, he sounds like someone who has been scorned by an ex!

Gore-Tex has its limitations, it is not some form of magic end of story.

Have never found Goretex to work as it was advertised/sold. Nothing I’ve had has been waterproof and none of the stuff I’ve had has ever been breathable. So on a wet day I’m soaked inside and then get a fresh dose of colder water from the outer layer, on a hot day, I end up soaked due to baking inside the kit as it just isn’t helping shift anything from my body.

Never been something I’ve actively saught out to buy, but if the price is decent i.e. kit on offer/in sales and it is at the price I’m willing to spend on the kit then it could be bought, but it never works properly…

It does seem to work on cooler and drier days, but then you tend to unzip things to help stay cooler anyway…I’m sure it worked well when it was first around and people found it a revelation, but nowadays it just doesn’t seem to work as well as it should (or as well as the marketing stuff would suggest).

and explains the history of Gore, and demonstrates why it isn’t able to do both at the same time despite the marketing indicating otherwise, and compares it to other brands, and highlights the questionable practices that may have held back other brands.
Seems like a perfectly reasonable 10 min video to me. Of course, you could just wring your hands without actually watching instead

I did say, let me guess : ) just wasn’t interested to watch a clickbait title video. No-one’s mentioned any new conclusions from it? That’s not to say I’m against anyone else repeating the questions or how their domination of the market makes it hard to challenge claims.
I have some awareness of Gore supply and brand politics but won’t claim much experience in the clothing industry. As for marketing, well if the DWR works Goretex can vent while it’s being rained on, how much or for how long compared to when dry or with other predictable influences coming into it is the big Q. ‘Marketing claims in not always 100% accurate at all times shocker’.

FWIW though I think my Gore Active jacket is great, I was given it and before I used it I’d never been impressed with Goretex for cycling (paclite) and wasn’t a fan, I just saw it as something a bit less sweaty than a cheap jacket but not in a way that venting couldn’t cover anyway. So I used cheap well-vented tops that I was ok with getting dirt on and stuffing in bike bags. Gore Active changed my mind to be fair, it’s still going to get clammy but it’s more like what I expected, comfortable for a decent period and I look after it, only take it when expecting the worst.

Generally I try to stay warm when wet rather than dry and prefer thin pertex+pile combinations or a water-resistant windproof over a primaloft gilet. I get cold fast when it’s wet on a long ride so insulation and reduced rate of soaking works well because nothing will keep you dry for long.

Thing about breathable *or* waterproof is that rain in the UK is usually somewhat intermittent and/or directional and goretex is a good windproof layer that breathes fairly well as soon as it dries off a bit. After a day outside in mixed weather, it’s obviously a lot better than what was generally available before (at the price point I was inhabiting anyway).

Yes if it’s tipping down 100% solid you’ll get wet whatever.

Nothing I’ve had has been waterproof and none of the stuff I’ve had has ever been breathable

I’ve never had a jacket leak until this one, where after many years the membrane broke up on the back of the hood where the draw cord is. It’s eVent.

Your jackets ARE breathable though. Go find a plain non-breathable one and go for a bike ride in it, to compare back to back.

whereas I have had brand new goretex soak thru after 10 hours walking in the rain.  Not a seam failure, not sweat but just the material could not cope with the amount of rain and cold and started to soak thru.  I think because we were a bit cold and thus no vapour pressure to push water vapour out and prevent water coming in.

I’m ignorant of the tech here. But it seems to me that “stopping water coming in” and “letting water get out” is something of a dichotomy. We want, what, a one-way fabric?

Yes. That’s exactly what it is. There are two mechanisms at work.

– The original membrane had tiny teeny holes in it as does eVent and some others like Pertex Shield Pro (?). Surface tension stops water drops getting in, but *vapour* gets out – and this is crucial. If you sweat liquid sweat, that isn’t going to wriggle its way out of your jacket on its own. You need a tight fitting wicking undergarment aka base layer which will soak up the moisture from your skin and wick it away. It needs to evaporate from the surface of your outermost inner layer so it can then percolate through the fabric.

– Modern GoreTex and most fabrics have a polyurethane layer on the outside of the tiny holes layer. This is hydrophillic on one side and hydrophobic on the other. The inside absorbs water and transports it through, where it evaporates. For this, you need the water to condense on the inside of the jacket so it can soak in and be sucked through.

Two very important things have to happen for this process to work if you’re exercising hard in either situation.

1. You must not wear cotton. It will absorb your sweat into the fibres and get wet and soggy, without transporting it to the outside. So you will be wet regardless.

2. The outside of the jacket must not soak up water – this means it needs DWR coating.

If you are not working hard, you aren’t making liquid sweat but you are perspiring – you do this all the time. The perspiration leaving your pores evaporates immediately and this can exit the jacket without the aid of a wicking layer. If you’re working hard, you need the wicking layer.

In the old days, you could be sitting or standing still in a non breathable jacket and it would still get wet on the inside as all the moisture leaving your body had no choice but to condense.

Not a seam failure, not sweat but just the material could not cope with the amount of rain and cold and started to soak thru.

How do you know? I don’t think there’s any way to distinguish between condensation on the inside of a jacket and rain getting through from the outisde. When my jacket leaked, it clearly let in cold water after only 5 mins when I wasn’t hot and sweaty, it was just a stroll in the rain. After 10 hours on a long walk I’m not sure how you’d know.

I think because we were a bit cold and thus no vapour pressure to push water vapour out and prevent water coming in.

I don’t think the membrane relies on vapour pressure to stop water getting in. AIUI it’s a one-way process. but the whole wicking process from your skin outwards does need warmth.

because we were not hot enough to be sweating ( borderline hypothermic) and the wetness patterns on the clothing underneath were where the rain hits not where you sweat ie on top of the shoulders etc and the amount of water.  Not where sweat would condense either.  Its not the first time it has happened either.  totally waterproof up til around 6 hours in the rain then started to seep thru.  Both of us, both with brand new goretex, more than one occasion.  Multilayer wicking fabrics underneath

Edit – its the pressure of the rain forcing water thru the fabric without any vapour pressure going outwards.  If you are warm this does not happen

So a very thin layer of clothing kept you dry for 6 hours in pouring rain? That sounds incredible to me, especially since the jacket has large holes in it so you can see where your going etc.

If it had been non breathable like oilskins we would have remained dry.  the water was NOT coming in thru the neck or sleeves or front.  It was soaking thru the material

Not superthin either – these were winter walking jacket weighing well over half a kilo

That sounds incredible to me, especially since the jacket has large holes in it so you can see where your going etc.

They have things called hoods now…

try this as an experiment.  Turn the hood of your breathable jacket inside out.  Put a bit of water in it.  add a bit of pressure – doesn’t need to be much ( or hang it up with a puddle in the hood. watch the water soak thru the material.  without the pressure it takes a while.  with the pressure its almost instant

I cant’ be bothered watching the video, but let me guess – another shallow youtuber discovering stuff that was well known 30 years ago and presenting some great revelations based on limited understanding. Marketing gimmick? if you’re 7000+m up a far mountain ridge days from safety with some weather rolling in, what other fabrics would you rather be wearing? At the same time, if you’re doing high energy activity of any sort and keeping a waterproof of any sort on as default then you may be missing the point. That said the latest versions of Gore Pro are different and noticeably better in MVTR than what what came before… having been through every iteration since V1… These fabrics have there place and are market leaders for a reason but not every user will need those capabilities and cheaper alternatives are available.

I watched the video and I didn’t get upset about it. 

I have come to the conclusion over many wet years that an umbrella is the best option if there isn’t much wind. 

I use an agu poncho on my bike and over my gortex motorcycle gear when it’s throwing it down. 

IME after several hours of proper rain whilst working hard, you get wet. Breathable/non breathable hood/no hood etc. It wicks up the arms, up from the stomach and seeps in through the hole your face pokes out. I’ve yet to see a jacket without at least 4 big holes (head, 2x arms, torso) and water finds it’s way in that way when you’re swishing about.

Dunt matter how many £££’s you spend or how new it is. Dampness beckons here… 🙃

so why were we wettest on the shoulders?  I had a wide brimmed waterproof hat on – neck opening was dry

Your jacket is touching your body most on the shoulders perhaps? Also the shoulders collect most of the rain so m8ght be colder (cos the rainwater is cold) which would mean more condensation in the places that are being rained on the most.

MOlgrips – it was soaking thru.  try the experiment above.  You do not sweat when borderline hypothermic

so why were we wettest on the shoulders?

Carry sacks? Probly sweat condensing under the straps… If no sacks, I dunno. YMMV but I’ve always got wet in really foul days regardless of the top layer.

endoverend
Full Member
I cant’ be bothered watching the video, but let me guess

Guessing isn’t working too well for you

you could see where the rucksac straps were – it was less wet there.  Same as we were dry down our backs – because the rucsacs were taking the rain not the back of the jacket.  the pattern of wetness made it obvious the material had just got overwhelmed by the pressure of the water.  We were not sweating being borderline hypothermic

Seriously try the experiment with a hood full of water – you will be suprised at how easily it comes thru with a wee bit of pressure

Pit zips definetely help release the sweat, though. Would always have them on a bike jacket.

Hydrostatic Head, isn’t it? So, 20K is the benchmark for a few hours…I can’t imagine any breathable fabric withstanding 6 hrs +

indeed finephilly – thats the issue.  being cold inside the jacket makes it happen quicker.

IIRC, Gore Tex works due to the temp gradient (and therefore pressure gradient) with higher temp/pressure inside driving water vapour through the PTFE membrane to the outside.

BITD I was always a bit sceptical of high altitude single skin Gore-Tex tents for that reason as I couldn’t see how in UK conditions, I wouldn’t be getting wet with stuff coming back through.

“What were you arguing about on Singletrack World today dear?”

“Whether Gore-tex is indeed an effective semi-permeable membrane…”

Aye. Add to the recent ‘Experts of STW’ thread: breathable fabric engineers (if there is such a thing).

Hmm. TBF if I was out walking in mega-rain then a wax cotton jacket like a Barbour is probably best.

Seriously try the experiment with a hood full of water

Heh, you forget who you’re talking to 🙂 I have done plenty of tests, including filling a jacket with water, and I got nothing – I was doing it inside out though so the water was on the outer face. I’ve also put on a dry cotton T-shirt under my jacket and stood under a cold shower. I felt cold and wet on my shoulders but the t-shirt revealed nothing although my skin had become somewhat clammy. Of course I wasn’t in there for 10 hours but it shows that simple water pressure from falling water droplets isn’t enough to get water in through the fabric.

Some other pressure related mechanism perhaps – for example, water under rucksack straps, or sitting on wet ground might create the pressure required to push water through a fabric.

TBF if I was out walking in mega-rain then a wax cotton jacket like a Barbour is probably best.

How breathable or waterproof is waxed cotton? I personally would not wear a Barbour jacket, I’d boil.

Yea, waxed cotton is not very breathable at all. But, it is very waterproof + the jackets are usually insulated. You just look like a bit of a country bumpkin when wearing one…

The other option i’ve considered is Ventile, which is very tightly weaved cotton. It is supposed to be very breathable and yet waterproof, using the same principles as Goretex. Never tried it though, due to cost.

https://hilltrek.co.uk/about-hilltrek/ventile/

Aye. Add to the recent ‘Experts of STW’ thread: breathable fabric engineers (if there is such a thing).

Probably Chemical Engineers innit? (3M/BASF/Dupont employees) coming up with coatings and/or polymers to laminate together.

There’s probably loads of ways to skin the Waterproof and/or Breathable cat from a materials perspective, but for the companies flogging clothing in those markets, half the battle is the punter’s perception of your product and the tradenames attached to whatever fabric you use can carry more weight than their actual function…

Beyond jackets I think Shimano’s winter boots are a good example of this, specifically the MW7 Vs the MW5.

I’m very happy with my MW5, it takes a fair bit of effort to actually defeat the waterproofing IME and I’m really not sure I believe the MW7 is worth double the money for a Gore-Tex badge and a Boa (Discuss), but I did mull the option of buying the MW7 the allegedly posher materials and my general ignorance of how well they perform, was swaying me a bit (being a bit of a skinflint won out though).

Of course Shimano are probably big enough with a diverse enough product line not to be “afraid” of Gore, and if there’s money to be made from sticking their name on the flagship product they’ll do it, but as ever the next model down ain’t bad despite not using Gore-Tex

Personally I think it does a great job.. I dropped a big lump of cash on a G-tex Pro jacket some years ago, and I’ve never regretted it, and that jacket has hundreds of days on it now and has seen a lot of wet and windy weather.  If you’re really hammering out sweat then you’ll get wet in most anything, even just a t-shirt

The reason Sympatex died , and eVent gets a beating, and ditto a bunch of other competitors is that they might be fantakka for a fortnight or so, but they soon fail after that.  Goretex have had some bum products (XCR for example) but I can’t fault Pro or Paclite.

Edit – I’ve had a ventile jacket years ago.  They are nothing like waterproof.  Think of it as heritage softshell

‘try this as an experiment.  Turn the hood of your breathable jacket inside out.  Put a bit of water in it.  add a bit of pressure – doesn’t need to be much ( or hang it up with a puddle in the hood. watch the water soak thru the material.  without the pressure it takes a while.  with the pressure its almost instant’

I’m calling bs on this.  Tried.  After 10 minutes no water came thro’, nor did any dampnes suggest it was going to.

Guessing isn’t working too well for you

Alright, I watched it then. It was exactly as I expected. Didn’t learn anything. In fact most of it was well known among outdoor types in the late 80’s, some of the rest of it was just opinion and not very accurate.

Well it’s a long time ago but part of my uni course was to do with semi permeable membranes as applied to fabrics. I then spent a while supervising biomimetics projects with Reading Uni one of which was ways to improve breathability and waterproofness. (Trying to copy what stomata do)