Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick

We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can’t cope with; it err…doesn’t work. How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

The world is a big place and Gore-Tex is sold all over the planet.

Not everyone is an STW supergenius.

and demonstrably false: https://rab.equipment/uk/mens/waterproof-jackets?

Go count the number of different waterproof membranes on their site.

The claim in the video isn't that Gore won't let manufacturers use other membranes at all - indeed it compares proprietary and Gore membranes by Dainese in motorcycle clothing (Dainese's own at half the price performed better).

But Gore does stop manufacturers from using non Gore membranes in their flagship, most expensive products. If they do, the licence to use Gore is pulled.

But Gore does stop manufacturers from using non Gore membranes in their flagship, most expensive products. If they do, the licence to use Gore is pulled.

Do North Face not market Futurelight as the flagship and still use Gore Tex?

My shake dry is the only waterproof top I’ve ever worn that is also breathable. No good for mtb however, and now no longer made

easily the best item of clothing in my wardrobe

Do North Face not market Futurelight as the flagship and still use Gore Tex?

I'd never heard of futurelight, but a 30 second search on the North Face website for waterproof jackets, ranked by price high to low shows their most expensive jackets are Gortetex.

I guess he's too young to have worn a G&H Cagjac. State of the art at the time but hot and sweaty in the dry or wet.

Goretex does work but breathability does depend on the external humidity, as I believe it does with all similar membranes. You can't drive moisture through the membrane into a more moist environment. 

For those not sure if GoreTex or most other modern waterproof and breathable fabrics are any good, can I suggest you buy the cheapest pacmac unbreathable waterproof you can and go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

I've just had a GoreTex Active jacket randomly delaminate in the wash but to be fair it was 8 years old and I probably haven't washed it for two years (which is supposedly worse than overwashing them).

I'd buy another one though. To be fair, every GoreTex jacket I've owned has outperformed the cheaper technical fabrics in terms of waterproofness and breathability.

.... go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

You know this is about a video from a Motorbike channel? No pedalling or perspiring required.

As mentioned above, I get on quite well with GT in socks and boots, less so in jackets (though still OK) but not at all in gloves.

Any ideas why this might be? Is it the more complex shape? The amount of stitching? The difficulty keeping seam taping in place with the constant friction of on/off?

I've had loads of Gortetex mountaineering and motorcycling gloves, from quite a few (well known) manufacturers. Probably at least 10 or 12 pairs. Not one has kept the rain out for more than 2 or 3 drenchings (sometimes failing on the first properly wet trip). I've returned them under guarantee only to have the replacements fail in the same way. To be fair, I've had the same with other membranes in gloves.

There does seem to be a specific technical challenge in making gloves that can survive a proper drenching without leaking in fairly short order. Or maybe I'm just unlucky.

If I could find good quality non breathable waterproofs I would. I find so called breathable waterproofs even when new cannot cope with multiple hours of heavy rain as when you gt a bit cold underneath them then they start to let water soak thru. I have cycled in a full motorcycle non breathable waterproof suit as was fine in it - not getting overheated and remembering the secret to not getting sweaty is ventilation

watched half of the vid. He doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.

Why don’t we just use DWR without a membrane? Well why don’t you go and try that out see how you get on mate? I have and so have a lot of other people.

If you think you’re better off with a wooly jumper and a binbag – go right ahead and do that. You may not like the results. We’ve been there, it was not as good.

Expecting things to be perfect based on lack of understanding and then whinging when they aren’t – that really pisses me off.

+1

Loads of winter cycling gear is built like that with a tight knit DWR outer and a fluffy inner aka "softshell" or "Roubaiux" fabircs. They shed water if you're riding through mist/drizzle, but that's about it.

And people who think membrane fabrics are bad are obviously not familiar with the old coated nylon stuff we had pre-goretex. Goretex et.al. are only only mildly-moist on the inside by comparison!

It's not a "Scam" as such, it's just a trade name for various flavours of lined fabics, how well those actually work depends a lot on how it's configured (garment design), what the envirnoment it's used in is like and of course how warm and moist the flesh sack you put inside it is.

The 'Gore' and 'Goretex' brands have just developed over the years into presumed selling points, with minimal substance behind them any longer, whether or not consumers are wise to that is another question, calling it out in a YT video is a reasonable thing to do IMO, if it prompts consumers to scrutinise their purchases a bit more that must be a good thing.

He’s a YouTube motorbikerist who to me at least, has always come across as arrogant as F.
Don’t generally watch him.

Meh, He's OK I don't think he's "Arrogant" he just has a certain style of delivery, I'm not a motorbikeist but he covers topics that cross over with my own areas of interest and thus the Al-Gore-rhythm has occasionally served up some of his content which I've generally found engaging and interesting.

I find the best way to stay less sweaty when wearing any Gortetex or similar jacket is to make maximum use of any vents, rather than relying on any inherent fabric 'breathabilty'.
My Goretex motorbike jacket and trousers have zipped vents under the pits, across the back, on the thighs and at the wrists and ankles.  These work well.

it’s breathable OR waterproof, not breathable AND waterproof.

Sounds dubious given nearly every outdoor brand with GTX products (that I know of) also uses other membranes in waterproof jackets in their range eg Rab uses 3 or 4 different types IIRC: GTX, Pertex Shield, their own one in their Kinetic jackets, and probably another one….

The information is now 10 years old, but the FTC don't seem to have been happy with Gore's approach. Due to things like:

"I asked dozens of industry veterans and designers about the unprecedented marketing attacks from Columbia and Polartec, and the first thing I noticed was the fear. Hardly anyone was willing to speak about Gore-Tex on the record. When I asked one manufacturer why people were being so coy, he told me, “Everybody hates Gore, everybody needs Gore, so everybody’s afraid of Gore. They can make or break you.” He was referring to an open secret among industry insiders: that Gore’s licensees are afraid to work with non-Gore technologies, lest the market leader terminate their contracts. "

from here: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/insane-membrane/

Maybe they've cleaned their act up now, maybe not

I’ve not found anything better that GoteTex - as others have said, the performance of the DWR coating on their laminated fabrics is critical to its breathability in wet conditions. If it beads, it’s fine (for me), if it wets out, it doesn’t. All laminated membranes are prevented from breathing when the face fabric wets out. Nothing unique to Goretex in that regard, but I’ve found Gore’s DWR treatments to work better and for longer than others.

The Shakedry lacks the face fabric and whatever they use to bind the laminate to the face fabric and so breaths in all conditions better than their laminates.

All waterproof gloves other than Outdry options are flawed as the membrane in in the wrong place in the gloves construction, so gets stifled by wet insulating material.

Let me guess -

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn't breathe as well as it does when it's dry?

Slow clap if so.

I've ridden long distances in proper rain in Gore Active jacket and stayed dry from the rain and not sweaty at all, it's very good stuff and noticeably better than paclite. But if I ride hard in anything like that I sweat, there isn't a breathable hardshell that can cope unless it's very well vented.

My general use rain jacket is Gore Windstopper hardshell, it's not fully WP rated but it's enough to slow down the getting-wet process and it breathes / is vented pretty well. I'd take the Gore Active if I wanted to stay dry in proper rain for a number of hours though.

Shake dry is the only Gore-Tex product that does actually do what it needs to do. Never wets out and breathes like a King.

But you get a bit of frailty in that process. Mind you I've only ripped it once in 4 years and repaired it.

Tools for the job. Gore-Tex isn't one product is it? Most of the big Gore-Tex jackets are for standing around in - for active people they just get too hot. The weak link for these products appears to be the DWR. Massive flaw. They never last and you can't simply fix them with proofing/cleaning products - they're simply not as good as when new and seem to deteriorate quickly.  Shake-dry removes that bit and that's why it works.

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry?

and explains the history of Gore, and demonstrates why it isn't able to do both at the same time despite the marketing indicating otherwise, and compares it to other brands, and highlights the questionable practices that may have held back other brands.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable 10 min video to me. Of course, you could just wring your hands without actually watching instead

When I first got into mountain biking and used to pound out 35 mile loops Saturday and Sunday morning around the Walton Heath/Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking bridleways - which got very muddy and wet in the winter.

I would wear mostly HH lifa base tops with fairly cheap Ronhill pertex running jackets - which were fully waterproof but with a lot of vents for running ventilation (across the back, etc - not pit vents). If the weather was really cold I might wear another thin fleece midlayer, although not often.

I thought this worked really well and I never remember feeling the need to upgrade - I was riding hard enough to need to often wash the white salt marks from my helmet straps.

Currently I have a Rab Pertex Shield jacket, with pitzips, that I only use for walking, and I really don't think it is great for breathability, and I am fairly used to the 'feel' of the thinner type of jacket, having had several paclite walking jackets from North Face and Berghaus.

All my riding jackets are eVent which seems to work well in the rain and has never felt 'sweaty'

I've watched quite a few of his videos on YouTube. They're generally very good (I'd defiitely recommend his channel), but they often lack an historical perspective. I only notice that when he's talking about the period that I was really into motorbikes during the late 70s, 80s and early 90s. As a few have already commented, it could be difficult to imagine the revolution that GoreTex represented when it was introduced and became widely available.

Looking at my own wardrobe, I've a variety of waterproof products including, but not restricted to, many with GoreTex laminates. They all have their pros and cons of course - breathability, weight, packability, durability etc. I have had great experience with the Columbia Outdry approach but that still really relies on good venting and availability seems to have fallen off a cliff.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Paramo yet.

As for FortNine. I do find it hard to get past his smug/arrogant presentation style.

Youtuber raises the age-old and well-known point that a jacket covered in rain droplets doesn’t breathe as well as it does when it’s dry?

Slow clap if so.

Do you realise how easy it would be to answer your own question and save yourself the bother of guessing and being wrong?

I'm from the time when Cagjac (PU) and Sprayway Falcons (neoprene and when Sprayway was a decent brand) were the jackets of choice for hillbashing. PU delaminated rapidly and leaked at the seams, neoprene lasted ages and in the Falcon, was fully taped. Both resulted in the sort of sweaty mess created by a pervy Prince at the local pizza palace...

Along came the Berghaus Mistral in first gen Gore Tex and changed everything - until it became contaminated by body oils, lost its water proofing and was recalled. They then added a layer of PU to protect the PTFE in so doing ****ing the breathability but resolving the contamination issue.

Since then, I've had many different flavours of Gore and other manufacturers breathable fabric garments. Even the sh1t ones have been night and day better than the rubbish we were using in the early 80's.

For standing around/sitting on a motorbike, anything 100% waterproof will do. For working hard, Shakedry is king but not for rucksacks/brambles/falling off. After that, I find them much of a muchness and usually get wet after 3-4 hrs of energetic hillbashing in proper rain regardless of brand or £££'s spent. Cold/dry conditions (1 or 2 days per year in the UK? ), the breathables work fine so long as you don't go too daft pace wise. If you want to push it, Pertex is the answer (or softshell if you must go more modern but usually too warm for me :-))

demonstrates why it isn’t able to do both at the same time

It can. That's what the DWR is for. His demonstration is flawed.

It can. That’s what the DWR is for. His demonstration is flawed.

His demonstration is for Gore-Tex, which Gore market the product as breathable and waterproof. I can't remember Gore ever caveating that with "but only if you use and maintain a DWR"?

Yes, most of the people here get it, but this stuff is constantly being sold off to punters as something near miraculous.

Well quite - the marketing is clearly overstating it. But that's not the same as the product not working.

But that’s not the same as the product not working.

it is when the product is the waterproof and breathable miracle fabric. The product the punter buys should very clearly mention the DWR and what you have to do to it (and a lot do to be fair), but that isn't Gore's area and it's Gore being looked at here

I can’t remember Gore ever caveating that with “but only if you use and maintain a DWR”?

Isn't that on the big black diamond-shaped tag that everyone throws away?

Yes, most of the people here get it, but this stuff is constantly being sold off to punters as something near miraculous.

And how many of those people do you think are using Gore-Tex in the active settings we do? I'd wager that the vast majority is bought by dog walkers or people off to the match. It'll be breathable for them, I'm sure, with a nice label.

For those not sure if GoreTex or most other modern waterproof and breathable fabrics are any good, can I suggest you buy the cheapest pacmac unbreathable waterproof you can and go for a reasonable pedal on your bike or up a hill. While they will keep the rain out, arguably marginally better in really bad conditions, the inside will be like a window in your bathroom after a long shower. Urrgh.

Well yeah if you decide to live in it, but the useful thing you can do with a cheap (packable) 'Pac-a-mac' is to put it on when the rain starts, and take it off when the rain stops 😉

The tendency I see with people who buy expensive, bulky "cycling jackets" is to wear the damn things all the time once the temperatures go below ~15*C, they might work, but IME they're almost as prone to overheating/capturing condensation as any £10 special once worn outside of their optimum operating environment, and won't stuff in a jersey/Gilet pocket, where that cheapy Pac-a-mac will.

Dressing for the temperature (with base/Mid/outer layers, Arm warmers, buff, etc) and carrying a thin packable waterproof layer to shove on in an emergency isn't actually a terrible approach for a lot of Road/Gravel/MTB situations (IMO/IME)...

 

Along came the Berghaus Mistral in first gen Gore Tex and changed everything – until it became contaminated by body oils, lost its water proofing and was recalled. They then added a layer of PU to protect the PTFE in so doing ****ing the breathability but resolving the contamination issue.

That's sort of true, but over the years they've refined the way the PU layer works along with how the face and liner fabrics are glued - using PU - to the membrane, which is one the ways they've engineered better breathability into their fabrics. Note also, ShakeDry, which didn't need a DWR, but has been discontinued. If you could make ShakeDry with a more durable outer using a sustainable, eco-friendly process it would be ace.

Anyway, as a lot of people have already pointed out, Gore-Tex may not be perfect, but if you think it's really 'not breathable', try wearing an old skool vinyl sou'wester or similar and walking up a hill / riding a bike / watching television and see if you change your mind. Windstopper btw, recently 'Infinium' but about to become 'Windstopper by Gore Labs' or some similar bunkum, is basically the Gore-Tex membrane without the PU layer.

By autumn 2015, all Gore-Tex is going to be based on a new, fluoro-chemical free ePE membrane, so it won't be Teflon anymore and matey can make a new video about that instead. I'll say this for Gore, I've been to their Bavarian testing and development facility several times and they are incredibly thorough when it comes to developing and testing fabrics and specifying the way they're used. They're a slightly odd company and can get a bit messianic - stuff like FutureLight and NeoShell are aguably as good or better in some respects - but they are scarily thorough.

Basically it's not as black and white as YouTube unsurprisingly conveniently thinks it is.

I can certainly confirm that Gore-Tex as a motorcycle clothing waterproofing is rubbish.

@BadlyWiredDog testing Gore's new Bavarian products yesterday:

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/R0Xctsc1/61w-B4-i-BQn-L-AC-UY580.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/R0Xctsc1/61w-B4-i-BQn-L-AC-UY580.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

@BadlyWiredDog testing Gore’s new Bavarian products yesterday:

I thought I'd taken that picture down 🙁

A few years ago, Aldi/Lidl had some cycling "breathable" soft shells on their middle aisle for silly money.

I used it twice before binning it, it was so damp and uncomfortable, and that was when it wasn't raining.

I'm ignorant of the tech here. But it seems to me that "stopping water coming in" and "letting water get out" is something of a dichotomy. We want, what, a one-way fabric?

blokeuptheroad makes the most sense to me here, vents in places where you're not going to get rain ingress in order to allow your own ming to escape. I have a Cheshire Oaks factory outlet special North Face coat which is 15 years old if it's a day. It's HyVent or something. It is, TBH, past its best now and any 'beading' is a distant memory. But it still works because there's bloody great vents under the armpits and I wear a long-sleeved wicking layer underneath it.

Layering with functional fabrics that cope with getting wet; remove layers as you heat up rather than sweating buckets; outer windproof layer; competent but not stupidly priced shell for when it gets very unpleasant (more to preserve core warmth and reduce wind-chill than absolute waterproofing). This is particularly true for an activity that generates lots of energy (not e-biking, then) where the garment is frequently dirty. Like at least one of the other posters I'm using an Outdry jacket (bought in 2018 for about £90 iirc) that's been spot on for MTB use; it's a pity Columbia never developed the fabric technology or improved the features (hood design) of this range, and now seem to have moved on from it.

The video is awful. Full of half truths and some outright nonsense, he sounds like someone who has been scorned by an ex!

Gore-Tex has its limitations, it is not some form of magic end of story.

Have never found Goretex to work as it was advertised/sold. Nothing I've had has been waterproof and none of the stuff I've had has ever been breathable. So on a wet day I'm soaked inside and then get a fresh dose of colder water from the outer layer, on a hot day, I end up soaked due to baking inside the kit as it just isn't helping shift anything from my body.

Never been something I've actively saught out to buy, but if the price is decent i.e. kit on offer/in sales and it is at the price I'm willing to spend on the kit then it could be bought, but it never works properly...

It does seem to work on cooler and drier days, but then you tend to unzip things to help stay cooler anyway...I'm sure it worked well when it was first around and people found it a revelation, but nowadays it just doesn't seem to work as well as it should (or as well as the marketing stuff would suggest).

and explains the history of Gore, and demonstrates why it isn’t able to do both at the same time despite the marketing indicating otherwise, and compares it to other brands, and highlights the questionable practices that may have held back other brands.
Seems like a perfectly reasonable 10 min video to me. Of course, you could just wring your hands without actually watching instead

I did say, let me guess : ) just wasn't interested to watch a clickbait title video. No-one's mentioned any new conclusions from it? That's not to say I'm against anyone else repeating the questions or how their domination of the market makes it hard to challenge claims.
I have some awareness of Gore supply and brand politics but won't claim much experience in the clothing industry. As for marketing, well if the DWR works Goretex can vent while it's being rained on, how much or for how long compared to when dry or with other predictable influences coming into it is the big Q. 'Marketing claims in not always 100% accurate at all times shocker'.

FWIW though I think my Gore Active jacket is great, I was given it and before I used it I'd never been impressed with Goretex for cycling (paclite) and wasn't a fan, I just saw it as something a bit less sweaty than a cheap jacket but not in a way that venting couldn't cover anyway. So I used cheap well-vented tops that I was ok with getting dirt on and stuffing in bike bags. Gore Active changed my mind to be fair, it's still going to get clammy but it's more like what I expected, comfortable for a decent period and I look after it, only take it when expecting the worst.

Generally I try to stay warm when wet rather than dry and prefer thin pertex+pile combinations or a water-resistant windproof over a primaloft gilet. I get cold fast when it's wet on a long ride so insulation and reduced rate of soaking works well because nothing will keep you dry for long.

Thing about breathable *or* waterproof is that rain in the UK is usually somewhat intermittent and/or directional and goretex is a good windproof layer that breathes fairly well as soon as it dries off a bit. After a day outside in mixed weather, it's obviously a lot better than what was generally available before (at the price point I was inhabiting anyway).

Yes if it's tipping down 100% solid you'll get wet whatever.

Nothing I’ve had has been waterproof and none of the stuff I’ve had has ever been breathable

I've never had a jacket leak until this one, where after many years the membrane broke up on the back of the hood where the draw cord is. It's eVent.

Your jackets ARE breathable though. Go find a plain non-breathable one and go for a bike ride in it, to compare back to back.

whereas I have had brand new goretex soak thru after 10 hours walking in the rain.  Not a seam failure, not sweat but just the material could not cope with the amount of rain and cold and started to soak thru.  I think because we were a bit cold and thus no vapour pressure to push water vapour out and prevent water coming in.