MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Am I missing soomething?
no
what??
[url= http://www.allankelly.info/tubeless.html ]this link is useful[/url]
my first set took a while
did racing ralphs onto 5.1 rims yesterday in about 25 minutes from taking the teeny tiny tubes out of the boxes (well 20" [i]looks[/i] tiny...)
went up right away with a track pump. for once 😉
Followed Allen Kellys instructions to the letter and had no probs at all.
Could not have been simpler. Makes £50 'proper' tubeless kits completely redundant and an absolute rip-off. I can't see any advantage to using them over two BMX tubes and some sealant.
.....and can be done with just insulation tape, packing tape and old valves too!
How well does it work when swapping tyres?
No idea as i was using a new trye anyway. Apprantly there's no need to re-new when swapping tyres.
I will find out one day.
Jeez, what a ball ache.
Never had any probs with tyres & tubes myself. 😉
A ball ache how???
Unless you like getting thorn punctures that is 😉
No more patches and tubes too.
Hardly ever have punctures on my mtb. Probably one every 6 months or fewer.
Nearly always from thorns mindyou...
If it became an issue I'd think about trying something else though...
Easily the best upgrade i've ever made to a bike. £20 to turn a fast XC bike into a faster XC bike which punctures less and rails corners and descents like a dream?
Yes please...
Why would a tubeless tyre rail corners and descend (sp) better than a tubed tyre??
you can run lower pressures and you won't get pinch flats.
If you haven't tried tubeless + sealant you really are missing out
Lower pressures on corners means they will be wallowing doesnt it? I prefer a balance of 'give' in the tyre and it being hard enough to maintain its shape rather than riding a jelly.
I wont get pinch flats but will end up with dinged rims. Hmmm, that sound encouraging.
Surely they drag like a bitch as well?
you won't get pinch flats.
Sorry, that is incorrect.
I've changed tyres in a wet field just before a bike race before; I was all ready for it to not work and put tubes back in but they went on fine using the same rim strip and just a track pump.
Last week I accidentally rode over a barbed wire fence that had been trodden into the ground; there are three puncture marks in the rear tyre and one in the front but other than a little top-up before the next ride I've not had to do anything at all. I like that... 🙂
Lower pressures on corners means they will be wallowing doesnt it? I prefer a balance of 'give' in the tyre and it being hard enough to maintain its shape rather than riding a jelly.I wont get pinch flats but will end up with dinged rims. Hmmm, that sound encouraging.
Surely they drag like a bitch as well?
No, No and No.
If you don't know anything about a subject it might be best not to comment.
😕
cynic-al - Memberyou won't get pinch flats.
Sorry, that is incorrect.
How so? how can you pinch flat something that isn't there?
I think Sheldon Brown showed how most drag, or rolling resistance, is caused by the energy 'absorbed'* by the tyre deforming when it rolls beneath the wheel.
You can reduce how much energy is absorbed by either pumping the tyre up harder, so it deforms less, or by reducing the amount of rubber being deformed, say, by removing the inner tube.
I can't prove or disprove this, but it works for me. I'm running under 30psi instead of over 35psi, yet the tyres roll just as fast (and feel faster over rough ground).
The tyres don't wallow in corners, in fact, the bike seems to spring out of the corners faster than it went in.
And I've bashed my rims a few times now with no obvious dings, certainly no more than when i was running tubes.
*Or something, you know what i mean
Sharkbait, thats why i am asking, so that i can know something about the subject. No No & No doesnt really answer anything does it.
Please explain oh wise one
I gave up on the great tubeless experiment about three years ago. I was using Eclipse kits and putting a new tyre on. It was a direct replacement for the tyre I'd taken off which had worked fine but was worn out. I just [b]could not[/b] get it to inflate and I lost it - the whole f***ing lot ended up in the field behind my house.
But for all the hassle one thing is sure - tubeless makes a significant improvement to the ride.
Time is, so they say, a great healer and I've had two BMX tubes and a bottle of wheel milk sat in the cupboard for a few weeks now. One day soon I'm going to give it another go. Because it's worth it.
[i]You can reduce how much energy is absorbed by either pumping the tyre up harder, so it deforms less, or by reducing the amount of rubber being deformed, say, by removing the inner tube.[/i]
Is he not reffering to the contact area being deformed rather than whats inside the contact area?
At least i can try to understand your answer rather than being mocked
[i]And I've bashed my rims a few times now with no obvious dings, certainly no more than when i was running tubes.[/i]
I have dings in my rims when running tubed. Surely i will get more if i run lower pressures on tubeless?
in fact, within reason if tyres deform as they pass over obstacles they have reduced rolling resistance. A very hard (high pressure) tyre has to climb over every lump and bump, and in doing so so raises the whole of the bike and rider by the same extent which takes energy (ignore suspension action which we'll assume is pretty well the same for hard vs soft tyres)
So yes, higher pressure usually reduces rolling resistance on a flat surface (like road) but off road is a hindrance.
And to the earlier posts, we're talking about running 30psi here, not a wallowy 10psi.
[i]The tyres don't wallow in corners, in fact, the bike seems to spring out of the corners faster than it went in.[/i]
I thought the benefit (One of) is that you get lots of tracktion because the lower pressure allows the tyre to deform to the trail more. Surely this deformation causes an amount of 'wallowing' in the corners over and above a higher pressured tubed tyre? Maybe their stronger sidewalls make up for this? Surely a tyre that is putting more surface area onto the trail due to its lower pressure is inherently going to drag more than a tubed tyre at higher pressure?
I see what you are saying theotherjonv but surely we are talking minute amounts of benefit on obstacles balanced out with much higher amounts of flat on any given trail?
no, we're talking obstacles that seem minor compared to our size but compared to the size of wheels, etc. are significant. Unless your rides contain lots of genuinely flat (ie tarmac) even the flat fireroads are covered with stones, pebbles, roots, etc. where the deformation of the tyre is beneficial.
cynic-al - Memberyou won't get pinch flats.
Sorry, that is incorrect.
How so? how can you pinch flat something that isn't there?
Indeed - you cannot pinch the tube, you just rip the tyre instead.
Pressures:
Weirdly, lower pressures are faster, to an extent. There was a great thread about this on here while back. To summarise: With a hard tyre, you climb and fall with each nobble and pertuberance - the climbing uses a surprising amount of momentum/energy. With a softer tyre, it deforms instead of rising, so you use less energy. Applies less with slicker tyres and smoother trails where the footprint/friction is a bigger factor.
You can go too far with low pressures, leading to wallowing, feeling the rim and even rolling off the rim - it depends on the bead fit and sidewall strength, but you can get lower than using tubes. I happily run at 30psi.
Fair enough the otherjonv 🙂
What about the bigger surface contact area. Does that not negate the benefit?
jonv is right in a sense. Lifting a small amount of rubber over an obstacle is much more energy efficient than lifting a whole bike over it. Hence, tyres, suspension, bent arms, soft seats etc. etc.
However, when comparing a tubeless tyre at the same pressure as a tubed tyre, those that quote sheldy are right. Dynamically, a tubed system has a lot more mass to shift about over a bump. If you take into account how quickly the tyre is asked to deform, this can result in quite large forces according to old Newty boy. Hence, a tubeless tyre seems smoother simply because there's less of a tyre to squish. (in technical terms)
It seems on a subject like this there will be a multitude of differing views, some based on experience, some on cod science reasoning.
My understanding, after reading many similar threads, is that the lower pressure and thinner effective tyre makes for a grippy yet free rolling wheel.
Flats seem to be less frequent, but not unheard of and a spare tube is still adviseable as a torn tyre can be more likely to end your ride.
These benefits are not easy to quantify and balance against the faff of initial instalation, although the majority of ghetto users seem to be happy to continue once they have fitted their first set.
I have not switched to ghetto yet as the idea of getting messy when swapping tyres does not appeal. When the trails dry out I will give them go.
Re: deformation. Where the deformation occurs doesn't really matter, what matters is how much energy (your rolling energy) is used to cause the deformation. If there is less rubber to deform, it requires less energy. This effect holds true no matter how flat or bumpy the trail is, as your tyre still deforms on a flat trail (it bulges out at the side under your weight).
Re: Traction vs Wallowing. The extra traction allows me to push against the tyre more as i trust it to grip better. Although it maybe does compress more, like a suspension fork it gives me that energy back when it rebounds. Infact, another advantage of removing the tubes is that the tyre can compress and rebound quicker, giving you that extra pop.
Re: Extra contact area. i think the effect of the extra contact area is far less than that of the tyre deforming (see above).
Re: me typing like some sort of engineery type w@nker. I'm at work, in an engineering office. it rubs off unfortunately 😳
Edit: and it took me so long to type that about three people have already said the same thing, ah well.
In a word no.
In several other words, friction is minor and even if contact patch is 30% higher, 30% more of not a lot is not a lot.
Whereas raising potentially bike plus rider at say 80/85kg, even if it's just by a few mm over each obstacle hundreds of times each ride soon adds up.
Why do you think slicks vs knobbly are so much faster? Or knobblies with a 'continuous' centre tread - even the action of rising up and over each knob makes a difference
To be pedantic, statically, a tubed and tubeless system would have pretty much the same contact area. It's only when you start moving the system that things get different.
I'm making the point that within reason lower pressure is faster rolling, not slower, over rough' trails, even if the roughness appears minor. I'm not even considering the effect of more rubber, others are far more able at arguing that point.
My effect is noticeable whether you have tubes or not. I'm prepared to accept the effect is enhanced by having less rubber to squish. The risk of low pressure with tubes is pinch flats, ergo the benefit of tubeless for me is:
1. I can run lower pressures for lower rolling resistance, better grip, and not risk pinch flats as a result of having lower pressure
2. Reduced risk of 'normal' punctures (thorns / flint shards usually for me)
Indeed - you cannot pinch the tube, you just rip the tyre instead.
In my (limited) experience if you have got to the point of ripping a tyre, if would be just as knackered with a tube in it, as you end up with the black bubble of doom then an almighty bang.
Actually in that case you are better off again with tubeless, as you just get sprayed with white shit, whereas the tube can further tear the sidewall making a bodge impossible and leaving you with no other option but to walk.
ive got some tyres with many close knobs and they are very fast which supports the theory
Anyone paying 70quid for the latest batch of Stans is wasting their money, I mean if you cant try a tenner method, then fools money etc.
I'm loving the armchair science.... 😉
To be fair, my motivation was simply to overcome puncture problems with the Nevegals that came with my bike. The rest is fringe benefits.
Does it matter what size 20" tube you use?
Either of these any good?
http://www.bonthronebikes.co.uk/109-473887
or
http://www.bonthronebikes.co.uk/109-473888
just get one with a removable core, and a screw thread with lock nut and it will be fine
Much more informative guys. Thanks
Regardless of the science, which I should be able to work out but cant be bothered, I decided it was worth a try - try it before knocking it and all that. I ran it in some DH 2.25 mud tyres, and it made a very noticable difference to rolling resistance over normal XC tubes. It allowed me to run lower pressures, but I then found I dinged rims more regularly and when I had the tyre at low enough pressure to noticably improve grip the sidewalls flexed too much and the tyres would roll off the rim and "burp" during hard cornering. After the third case of being unable to pump it up on the track due to burps, having a side-wall tear that never sealed and having to clean out the dried and now useless latex in only 3 months of riding I decided to return to tubes. I now get punctures on virtually every ride. Frustrated. So I'm going to give it another try but using new better tyres and higher pressures, see how I get on. I have a litre of latex left 😀
In my (limited) experience if you have got to the point of ripping a tyre, if would be just as knackered with a tube in it, as you end up with the black bubble of doom then an almighty bang.Actually in that case you are better off again with tubeless, as you just get sprayed with white shit, whereas the tube can further tear the sidewall making a bodge impossible and leaving you with no other option but to walk.
So, you accept that you can get flats in the same way as a pinch flat. I don't see how the tube can tear the sidewall, that's nonsence.
"So, you accept that you can get flats in the same way as a pinch flats"
Not really no. Without a tube you cant get a snakebite and the tyre wont bloww off from a straight impact unless the beads are uber slack - in which case it won't seal in the first place :?. If your pressures are silly low e.g. <20psi, and the sidewalls are too weak, it might burp or roll under side pressure. This is not the same. Mine has burped in a crash when inflated to 25psi , but it re-inflated with a mini pump.
yes, cynic-al, ghetto is not fool proof. but...
with tubes, you can often get pinch flats that leave the tyre undamaged - these would be avoided tubeless
the lower pressures you can run might lead to more of these if you were running tubes, but the tyre is *much* tougher than the tube, so often not a problem
i do carry tubes, and tyre boots, in case of emergency, but get very few punctures of any kind compared to the three or four per ride i was getting that caused me to try it.
i've 'gone ghetto' on my xc bike, and my Dh bike.
and being a geek, i weighed stuff.
A 'normal' xc tube weighs 200g, a ghetto'd bmx tube weighs about 100g, you then add about 100g of sealant. So little weight benefit.
A thick Dh inner tube weighs 400g, so going ghetto saves 200g per wheel over Dh tubes.
every wheel i've done has needed a compressor, and lot's of patience, and a change of clothes after being sprayed in latex trying to get the bl00dy tyre to seat/catch.
whilst riding, it does seem a bit more puncture proof - even quite nasty slate slashes have been sealed.
But, i've found i've had to run quite high pressures to stop the tyre 'burping' over rocks - i've never heard a 'Burp', but have had latex sprayed over my legs. and finished descents with a lot less air in my tyres than when i started.
I've had tyres that have just given up, and deflated over night, after seeming to be fine for weeks.
and other gripes too numerous to mention here.
Verdict (based on my experience)
pointless for xc; - no weight saving, unreliable, and a faff to re-ghetto when it goes wrong. i haven't had any punctures, but have had plenty of 'deflations' - way more than i'd expect through good old fashioned thorns and pinches.
it is a valid weight saver for Dh wheels tho' - the bigger tyres / rims seem to give more reliable results. still a faff to sort out/change tyres on race day (high rollers to mud spikes for example).
it's got me thinking tho' maybe we NEED to fiddle around with unreliable bits of bike kit. Back in the day we had brakes that didn't work at the best of times, frames that broke, wheels that folded, tyres that didn't grip, gears that jumped, etc, etc. bikes were cr6p, but we still loved them, maybe that's WHY we loved them.
Modern bikes are basically sorted, there's no real reason why you can't ride hard for years without suffering a single mechanical/component failure.
Maybe we've just invented Ghetto/tubeless because it give us something to fiddle around with/bodge/fettle/swear at. maybe we need to feel that nagging doubt of 'i did my best, but i'm still not sure if it'll work'.
or maybe i just like getting covered in a spray of sticky white latex goo.
I don't see how the tube can tear the sidewall, that's nonsence.
while I wouldnt sell it as a good point about tubeless, he does have a point - when you have a normal tyre and get a tear, the tube tends to push it outwards and split the carcass further before going pop or catching the frame/rocks and going pop. With tubeless the rip remains very small, which means you can apply a patch internally and throw in a normal tube to get home. Irecently had exactly this situation with a normal tube/tyre combo, I actually watched the tear in the tyre "unzip" as I got off to see what the wobble was.
conversely I ghetto tubeless's the front wheel on my single speed and the tyre was dead (worn down completely), and I had to cut the fricking tube off as it was completely glued to the tyre and tore when I was trying to separate the two.
As for the tearing, well I've seen it on two of my tyres in the past, a NN and a Conti something, the NN the sidewall tear got opened up to around 1 1/2", and the Conti, it split the bead and made about a 6" tear and as CK you can watch it doing it.
I nearly deafened myself and nearly lost some fingers last night
I was trying the Ghetto my first rim, an OneOne 29er Reetard with a Schwalbe Little Albert (Folder).
All going well, went straight up first time on the track pump, great.
as per the instructions over pumped it to about 60 PSI and BANG!
Nearly deaf, Dead Fingers for an hour or so and Latex sprayed everywhere
DOH!
The tyre looks fine no splits, so it just seems to have slipped off the rim
Anybody else had this?
Have any of you done on with folders? Or do all stick to non folding tyres which I assume have a stronger bead.
Tyres do go on the Reetards extremely easily as opposed to a set of DT's that I have which I can't get a tyre on without levers so it's probably a rim thing too I 'spose
Did you use epoxy instead of latex by mistake, rich?
last poster, forgot who you are, I have only ever run ghetto with folding tyres.
Stans fluid and washing up liquid only, it had been in there around 8 months tho.
Curious, will watch out for that. My only worry was whether the latex (or more specifically the ammonia content) would damage the nice new tyres Ive got.
I though ahwiles experience was very interesting. I agree there is no weight saving. But I've stuck with ghetto tubeless for XC on the FS because it went together easy enough and it's been so trouble-free!
My HT has tubes, but it has Maxxis aDvantage tyres which don't seem nearly so puncture prone so I haven't felt the urge to ghetto them.
It really must depend of rim/tyre combos.
I think a lot of the problems people are having are down to experience and practice, which, granted, is a pain on a potentially messy/annoying job.
Every time I do one now, i take more time preparing the wheel/tyres and work area, and every time its goes up easier and is more reliable.
The most important thing i've found is to build up the rim bed with rim tape/insulating tape. The more you build it up the more tricky it is to get the tyre on, but once done it is far more likely to inflate easily, and I [i]think[/i] should be less prone to burping as there is less slack in the tyre to begin with.
Ahwiles, if you could ever be convinced to try it again, I reckon that was the problem. On your other point about complications on bikes, I agree! Problem is, having tried a working tubeless system, i couldn't go back...
Oh yeah I've had maxxis ones separate from carcass as well, but they were well used.
Ghetto = cheapskate bastards. Why would you spend over £2k on a bike and then go for the cheap option on one of the main areas? Beggars belief
Furry muff lads - I've never seen that, must be weak sidewalls.
Ghetto = cheapskate bastards. Why would you spend over £2k on a bike and then go for the cheap option on one of the main areas? Beggars belief
Why would you spend £50 on the "real deal" when you could spend £10 and do exactly the same job, just as well? That would just be stupidity.
And not everyone has £2ks worth of bike.
[img] 
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[img] 
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Fell for that one.
Fell for that one.
She's a looker alright.
Edit: Booooooooooooooooo! Rubbish edit 😡
You prefer the fish?! Fixshed 😉
Racing Ralph - thats a ridiculous thing to say! Have you actually tried a ghetto conversion? So you're saying a 'real' kit is better just because it comes in a neat little package and costs £50??!!! You beggar belief 🙄
I must be very lucky as i had no probs at all, so far.
I knew weight savings would be minimal as simple maths proved. I did so purely to stop thorn punctures, something i get alot of on my local trails around bristol. Tyres do feel like they have abit more grip though.
You beggar belief
Nope, you do - I fell for it so everyone else didn't have to, but you still did 😆
WTF
nickegg - MemberRacing Ralph - thats a ridiculous thing to say! Have you actually tried a ghetto conversion? So you're saying a 'real' kit is better just because it comes in a neat little package and costs £50??!!! You beggar belief [:roll:]
I must be very lucky as i had no probs at all, so far.
I knew weight savings would be minimal as simple maths proved. I did so purely to stop thorn punctures, something i get alot of on my local trails around bristol. Tyres do feel like they have abit more grip though.
NOOB
I had relatively few problems getting everything to work first time around. Changing tyres was a nightmare - had to start all over again, and now have problems losing pressure over a few days. Gone back to tubes, but will try again sometime cos the ride is better on tubeless imho.
I posted on Sunday " Just went Ghetto" . Been on three rides since. Bike is definatly faster. Very similar to taking off nobbly mud tyres and putting on faster summer tyres. Also the bike seems to ' pop ' more easily , and slightly more stable. Bear in mind I used to run slimed tubes to keep punctures at bay. The poster who weighed everything did not allow for 100ml of slime, plus the tube,when with Ghetto you can use less latex. Slime in tubes seems to bunch up and you can feel it when you spin up the wheels and sometimes in the corners.
So far with my Gheeto'd wheels I have not noticed this effect anywhere near as much.
Initially I ran them at 35 psi , but it was obviously too firm. Dropped them to 30 psi and its closer, maybe another 2 -3 psi less will be spot on for me.
No problems fitting them . I got them up on the bead , deflated then carefully injected the wheel milk.
Got to thinking maybe a turkey baster might be the right tool for the job.
STM
I run ghetto tubless
Is it faster? I dunno. Very subjective.
Is it grippier? Dunno. Again subjective.
Is it lighter? Probably not by much, if at all.
Do I get fewer punctures? Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Not one (other than a dodgy tyre which i tried to use, which was my fault) since converting.
Previously I was pinch puncturing about twice per ride on thick-ish tubes & high pressures. This was mainly from riding fast rocky stuff.
I'd recommend it to anyone pinch puncturing a lot.
Well excuse me for not understanding another english saying!
I shall assume that is what i have missed.
Nick on forums people take the piss and wait for reactions - fishing!
I see. I obviously have not been using this forum long enough. Usually i would be at work but redundancy means i have too time on my hands!
Can't wait to get another job!