Does it happen quickly?
Demo’ed a Bird AM160 on Friday and it was amazing. Climbed better than expected and gave be so much confidence descending.
But… (and bear in mid I’m used to riding a Parkwood 29er which is very short) lifting the front end was a chore.

The bike didn’t feel too long, I could get my weight back easily and am considering the next size up. So I guess it’s about developing an improved technique and getting stronger? As my upper body was so stiff the day after from trying to lift the bike around!

Experiences please?!

You might need a slightly higher bar which will help lifting the front, but will also mean less weight on the front.

It does get easier, you also learn to use your bodyweight more and not your arms – presumably you’re trying to manual?

Yea trying to manual I guess, but more be able confidently keep the front up when riding off of drops.
And yes, I am a bit of a kook and trying to teach myself to use body weight and not pull up with arms.
Thanks

As above, if you mean for a manual or something – yeah, you get used to it. It requires a bit more of a weight shift but IMO it’s just different not really harder.

Higher bars are usually better on long reach bikes.

Chiefgroovegru +1.

An oft undiscussed aspect of LLS.

Took a few rides in my case, soon got used to it. The biggest issue I had was switching between my old and new bikes, took me a few minutes to adapt my technique for a few weeks but now it’s second nature to switch between them.

+1 on the higher front end too, took a bit of experimenting to get that right.

I went from a 26″ Cotic Bfe to a Geometron so I felt the full effect of the extreme geometry.

Mad wheelie skills= gone
Manuals= not happening
Holding the front wheel up through rhythm sections= nah, you’re crashing into the back of that landing ramp.

I also struggled with jumping at first. Big booters were fine, mostly because I was coming in 10 times faster than before. Anything small with a tranny that required a bit of body language took some getting used to. I did a load of big scary nose dives early on.

The bike was awesome for just riding everywhere flat out. It still is. It goes up and along and down better than anything I’ve ever had. I’ve seen much better riders than me riding on the back wheel and hitting dirt jumps on them. I’m not where I’d like to be technique wise but I’ve had some long breaks due to niggling injuries.

I’m going to try a higher bar, I’m still using the 15mm rise that I had when I built the bike.

Sharkattack (and everyone) this is good to hear. I Only had one demo ride (an afternoon) but I experienced the same. Awesome everywhere but back wheel skills and jumping not happening.
It has crossed my mind not to go for such a progressive bike, but the awesome everywhere aspect of LLS outweighs that thought.

I saw the high bars effect as well. I dropped the bars 10mm as they felt higher than normal, but the handling then felt much worse.

ThankS all

Whats the thinking behind saying higher bars are good for LLS? Other than easier manuals and wheelies

LLS is a lot less fun.

fine for mincers and racers but for dicking about in teh woods its bit shit really.

See, I’m not a mincer or a racer but I love my bike. I’m 6’2″ and it’s the first bike that’s ever fit me properly. It feels the way that all mountain bikes would probably feel if we weren’t stuck with 1980’s road bike geometry for the first 20 years.

I started out riding BMX and then DH bikes so I’m not shy about tough trails or jumps. It’s still amazing to me that I’ve got a bike which does everything better than any DH or trail bike I’ve ever had. It’s so addictive the way it rips across rough terrain. Going back to a normal bike just feels dangerous in comparison.

But there’s the ‘fun’ aspect. I’ve been trying not to blame the bike because I’ve been out of action for a while and I know I’m rusty. But, it is much harder to just arse around on. It’s much happier on the ground. Popping and hopping and jumping around is way more effort. Probably not something you would notice or care about if you were a wheels on the ground type rider or “mincer”.

I need to get back to riding regularly and try to get some skills back. If the big bike continues to suck the fun out of lively trails I might think about a hardtail or shorter bike for the times when I want to just mess around.

You’re coming from a hardtail to full sus with lots of travel, are you compressing enough and in the right place, it should be easier to get the front wheel of a 27.5″ 160mm bike off the ground over a shorter travel 29er?

Also for drop offs you probably don’t want to practice the manual technique, more the push away technique to keep the front wheel up, or is that the one you’re having issues with?

To be honest it’s a huge change in bike though, when i moved to the enduro i struggled to get my chin over the stem as i was used to a shorter hardtail, so not in the right position to start trying to lift the front without using a bit too much arms.

I’ve had a Whyte S-150 since Feb and had to make a few adjustments too.

My main problem was not weighting the front end enough, I was used to a shorter bike where hanging further back was needed on the steeper stuff. I got spat out the side a couple of times as the front wheel just flopped over in the corners.

I actually lowered the bars and shortened the stem by 5mm. This made a bit of a difference but mainly I got use to a more central and aggressive riding position.

I think initially you just have to exaggerate the moves you would have done on shorter wheelbase bikes. You pump and pre-load harder, you turn a bit more sharply. I’m still not 100% there, I find myself understeering a bit if I don’t concentrate but overall I love the bike. It feels like I’ve finally got a bike where I feel like I’m in rather than on it.

First of all, for cornering and descending, stay centered on the bike, don’t hang off the back, and corner with hips and counter steering and hips instead of shoulders.

For manuals and low speed drops I find that on a LLS bike you need to a more “sliding rearwards” motion and strong preload. It’s less forgiving for lack of textbook technique than older shorter bikes where almost just needed to pull the bars to you and hang off the back for a manual. On the other hand, I find that on the LLS bike I don’t need to manual or move around as much on slow drops as I did in the old days.

I had an Aeris 145LT which is the same geo as the AM160 as far as I’m aware. I had exactly the same problem – I got a million times faster everywhere but I was struggling to get the front end skf the bike up for drops- especially slow speed ones.

I ended up running the ML one with a 32mm stem, 25mm rise bar and all but one of the spacers under the stem. I also got some coaching and that massively improved my confidence on it too. Really shifting your weight up and back (arms straight) whilst pushing forward through the pedals gets the front moving up much better.

That said I’ve now moved to the Aether 7 which has 10mm shorter seatstays (and I sized down to M)and 24mm shorter reach and the front end is a million times easier to pop up (45mm stem). I now almost find it popping higher than I expect on occasion as I had to get my technique so much better for the 145!

I have two lls Hts. One is 27.5 and the other 29. They seem similar in geometry and have same fork travel but I get on with the smaller wheeled bike much better. I have had several 29ers so I don’t think it’s wheel size so I am now looking carefully at all the variables to see why I feel really tentative on the bigger wheel bike

Yes as said above, it took me a bit to resist the urge to hang off the back and stay central on steeper downhills – still a work in progress.

@joebristol out of interest are you between sizes for the Bird sizing between M and ML?

tis all emperors new clothes.. lls just doesnt do poppy, playfull and bmx like despite what anyone will tell you. Yep its possible but theres no free lunch, just compromises…depends if you like rolling over stuff downhill fast of jumping off every tree root in sight..

I’m 5’9 so should be on the ML on both bikes I believe, but in terms of proportions I’ve got longer legs but shorter arms so always felt I struggled to weight the front wheel enough in fast corners. Swapping to the smaller Aether and so far so good. I’m more confident in the front wheel grip in the corners and I’m jumping better already and it’s more manoeuvrable. Couldn’t be happier.

I carried over all the same build kit so it’s got Lyriks set at 140mm, Code R’s, XM481’s in Hope Pro 4’s, 180mm Oneup dropper etc – so it’s still setup to take a beating!

I much prefer easier to weight the front wheel and harder to lift the front end than over bars all too easily. I think practice is the answer, by next summer after lockdown parts 2,3,4 etc… you will be a manual roling legend.

@beanieripper I think the thing here is that now people have the option to choose how agile-stable they want the bike to be. We used to be kind of locked into a size due to seat tube lengths, but you now can easily choose between 2, sometimes 3 sizes within a model, which is great.

You’re right, there’s always a compromise with each geometry, but I’ll also say that the “agility ceiling” for a proper LLS bike is higher than many of us think, and their gentle manners tend to better fit the type of riding most of us do

chainstay length certainly makes it harder to manual and less fun to jump

I have a unit with adjustable dropouts and did some experimenting when I first got it

Have to put more effort in to lift the front up with them at max, really push through with your legs

LLS bikes can absolutely be poppy and playful..

https://www.instagram.com/p/CC3LG8fgHVE/?igshid=f0ymgnvck8t3

Bird AM160 I believe.

Or any Yoann Barelli’s video of late with him on a new size L Meta AM 29

they’re not going to be as poppy or playful as something with shorter geometry though. its just physics. Bikes that are designed to be poppy and playful (jump bikes, bmxs) are neither long, low, nor slack.

personally, I like slack, and low is OK, but I don’t really like long. I’d rather be popping over stuff than plowing through it, and I don’t mind if its slower. My DH bike has a reach of 422 (15mm shorter than my old bike, which I prefer it to) and I’m 6’2.

LLS bikes can absolutely be poppy and playful..

View this post on Instagram

@petedono23 somehow trusted me enough to use his bike for the day. The larger and longer bike definitely felt a lot more stable over the rough stuff yet could still be thrown about in the turns. @maxtams @bird_mtb @ryan_gilligan_

A post shared by ⚔️J O E B R O W N ⚔️ (@joebrown.mtb) on Jul 20, 2020 at 4:37am PDT

Bird AM160 I believe.

For the amount of travel and how slack it is the Aeris 145LT / AM160 do have some pop.

But compared to the Aether 7 from the same company it doesn’t compare – the Aether pops the front end up much easier for me and it’s easier to get into and through corners and already feels like it’s easier to jump better.

The head Angle on the Aether is pretty close to the AM160 at 65 degrees with a 140mm fork (or slacker with a 150mm one), and it’s got a nice steep seat angle for pedalling efficiency. I think the difference for me is in the shorter reach (as I sized down in the swap) but also the shorter chainstays.

Note I did get a longer stem when I sized down (went from 32mm to 45mm) so the distance from bb to actually where my hands are on the bars only changed by about 11mm.

Anyone willing to answer this yet?

mashr
Subscriber

Whats the thinking behind saying higher bars are good for LLS? Other than easier manuals and wheelies

It’s a genuine question as the front end on mine is setup pretty low at the moment

Bird AM160 I believe.

Bird stated that they didn’t go for long chainstays for just this reason, but able to keep reach long

Whats the thinking behind saying higher bars are good for LLS? Other than easier manuals and wheelies

I suppose it just has you already pivoted back a bit, so you don’t have to pull yourself & bike up so far

Or keep it low & do more strength training 💪

That’s what I was assuming, not keen to compromise what seems like a good cornering position for easier manuals (and I don’t seem to find my setup much worse anyway, but then a low BB would also create a similar effect)

Hey Thanks for all replies, thoughts experiences and opinions on this one.
Getting closer to actually buying a bike, will be the first new MTB (or sub 3 year old MTB) I’ll have ever bought and as so much has changed with geometry over the past few years I wanted to understand as much as possible.

So it definitely seems there is a choice, front wheel lift, rad skills, jump friendly etc and the Longer and lower the bike the more planted and maybe more of a skills compensator it becomes?

Think I’ll still take confidence over nimbleness…personal pref obviously.

“Whats the thinking behind saying higher bars are good for LLS? Other than easier manuals and wheelies”

Yes, I’m just busier than I’ve been in my entire life (don’t have your third baby just before a pandemic, when you also run your own business…)

With modern geometry you don’t need low bars to get a bike to fit well to climb and pedal – the climbing is solved by the steeper seat tube, longer reach and longer chainstays. The pedalling position is solved by the longer reach. If the geometry is balanced right you can actively weight and unweight the bars as needed, rather than leaning on them all the time. And that position gives you more leverage for manuals etc.

I’m using 40mm rise bars on both bikes and they’re on the shorter side of modern geometry (455mm reach at 5’10.5”) and some spacers under the stem too – but I have long legs for my height.

In my opinion your bar height should relate to your hip height – the longer your legs, the higher your bars should be. If you try to run high bars and have short legs you won’t be able to weight them when you need to.

If you want to gain confidence, then it might be worth spending a few quid on one of the manual machines, you just need to get the feel for lifting the front wheel without the arms, it’ll not really do much for learning actual manuals, but it’ll help you learn how to get that front wheel up and if you switch it round, you can get the feel for lifting the back wheel as well.

Something to add from earlier though, if you want the feel of getting the front up without the above, i’d be practicing bunny hops over manuals, just a safer way of progressing from my experience, which included several falls of the back during manualing and a sore arse several times!

I’m using 40mm rise bars on both bikes

What bars are you using?

I can only find Renthal Fatbar in 40mm and they’re out of stock everywhere. 38mm seems to be common but I’d have to switch to a 35mm stem.

If it’s keeping the front wheel up for drops, I’d recommend watching this:

Probably the best video on drops I’ve watched. More emphasis on approach speed and moving your body weight than actually doing a manual off the drop.

Probably the best video on drops I’ve watched. More emphasis on approach speed and moving your body weight than actually doing a manual off the drop.

Yeah, was always taught never to try and manual off drops, if it works you land back wheel heavy a lot, if it doesn’t you run the risk of dropping your wheel or hanging up the rear just as you’re hitting the jump, not a good ending!

“What bars are you using?”

Fatbar Lites. One set in sensible clamp size and the other in 35mm. My preferred grips add 10mm taking the bars to 770mm wide. Are they out of stock to or too narrow?

I want the 800mm width. Can’t find them anywhere. No worries, I’m not desperate I just wanted to experiment.

Yeah, was always taught never to try and manual off drops, if it works you land back wheel heavy a lot, if it doesn’t you run the risk of dropping your wheel or hanging up the rear just as you’re hitting the jump, not a good ending!

I was told its a good technique to have in the arsenal, to save yourself if you get to the point of no return and realise you’ve misjudged it.
If it is your default technique, and you realise you still arent going to make it, then you are out of luck, you are already as far back as you can get.