Gaza

Why not?

The link which I posted goes some way in answering that, which is why I posted it.

It’s only about two or three minutes long btw.

Help yourself Google is that way.

Wonder if the Native Americans were portrayed as Christian hating savages back when they were resisting invasion and occupation…

On which note, had there been an international community and a vast global arms trade, would said *Christian hating savages* have been allowed weapons with which to defend their territory?

Help yourself Google is that way.

Thanks but I feel fairly confident that Hamas haven’t issued official statements calling for Jews to be killed so I am not sure what I should be using Google for.

As I said earlier, in 2019 Hamas was not even classified as a terrorist organisation by the United Kingdom government. I think we can both agree that it would have been if it had been calling for the killing of all Jews.

Of course none of this provides an explanation as to why 80% of Israelis support their far-right government’s policy in Gaza, in stark contrast to the rest of the world.

Indoctrination from an early age and deliberate relentless misinformation are the obvious culprits. I am sure that you have heard that according to the Israeli government there are no problems with aid arriving into Gaza and that it now exceeds what was arriving before the current situation.

Most Israelis undoubtedly believe that shit, partly because they want to and partly because they have been fed deliberate misinformation all of their lives.

Edit: A few weeks ago I saw Melanie Phillips  who now lives in Israel full-time on the panel of BBC Question Time. The audience gasped in disbelief when Philips said that markets in Gaza were full of food and when she claimed that the aid lorries were having no difficulty getting through.

She couldn’t understand why the audience didn’t believe her. It made her look stupid, which she very clearly isn’t, so she obviously said it because she really believed it to be true. Her problem was that she had spent too much time in Israel and listening to the right-wing governments propaganda.

On the specific issue below, it’s extremely hard to disagree with ernie:

Edit: A few weeks ago I saw Melanie Phillips  who now lives in Israel full-time on the panel of BBC Question Time. The audience gasped in disbelief when Philips said that markets in Gaza were full of food and when she claimed that the aid lorries were having no difficulty getting through.

She couldn’t understand why the audience didn’t believe her. It made her look stupid, which she very clearly isn’t, so she obviously said it because she really believed it to be true. Her problem was that she had spent too much time in Israel and listening to the right-wing governments propaganda.

I saw Melanie Philips on QT saying this and it was next level insane.  Either she’s so misinformed that she has no right to describe herself as a journalist, or the statement came from entrenched cynicism and an offensive denial of human suffering.

in stark contrast to the rest of the world

Because what happened at Hamas’ instigation in October didn’t happen to “the rest of the world”, it happened in Israel. When something like that happens in your country, your response isn’t the same as that of someone tapping away at a keyboard thousands of miles away. Rational gives way to emotion.

And on Melanie Phillips, she’s always been a hateful and twisted person. She was like that when she lived here.

Someone tapping away at a keyboard

How does ‘the rest of the world’ become ‘someone tapping away at a keyboard’?

If the lack of support from the rest of the world for Israel’s action in Gaza is because they didn’t experience the personal suffering of Israelis on Oct 7 why are they concerned about the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza? They presumably aren’t personally experiencing that either.

One of the obvious differences is that Israelis are being fed deliberate misinformation by their government.

Melanie Phillips might well be a hateful person but I have little doubt that she genuinely believed the nonsense that she was spouting on BBC QT. You could tell from the look of total amazement on her face when the audience gasped and laughed.

She was simply saying what the Israeli government has been constantly saying about the situation in Gaza. And she at least expected the audience to believe it, as presumably the majority of Israeli people do. Why would you expect the majority of Israelis not to believe their government?

I’m aghast at the number of attempts to detract from Hamas’ actions by referring to the language in their charter, and I wonder what the ultimate aim of those contributions are and how they can, in good conscience, be made in the face of the live-streamed atrocities Hamas committed and gleefully shared with the world last year. I haven’t seen anybody claiming that the Israeli government and the IDF have an unblemished record, but it seems when Hamas are concerned certain contributors get all Duck Soup: “Who are you going to believe? The Hamas Charter of 2017 or your lying eyes?”

I’m also curious why those posters’ championing of Palestine and the Palestinian plight seems to begin in 1920. Jews have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years. There’s lots of talk of 1967 borders and people being usurped from their homes and land, but prior to the creation of Mandatory Palestine it was more of a region within the Ottoman Empire than a tangible place with defined borders on a map within which you could stick a pin, and Arabs and Jews lived in the region together. And during that time there were plenty of incidents in which Jews were attacked and forced out of their homes, the largest of such being the 1917 Jaffa Deportation. If it’s about having a claim to the land, they were persecuted and forcibly removed from their homes and a significant percentage of them died as a result of either the abuse they suffered or starvation. Why do these people not get the same sympathy as Palestinians do now? Because they fled the land to escape these incidents they now have no claim to it?

I can see from the Israeli perspective that they cannot share a land with a people who want them dead,

Yes those Armenian Christians are a dangerous bunch.
https://x.com/loffredojeremy/status/1778440051426226487?s=46&t=0EdQH2VaJpSkNmaw8CsUvg

“I’m aghast at the number of attempts to detract from Hamas’ actions by referring to the language in their charter, and I wonder what the ultimate aim of those contributions are and how they can, in good conscience, be made in the face of the live-streamed atrocities Hamas committed and gleefully shared with the world last year. ”

Then you misunderstand the nature of my argument. 7/10 was an atrocity, totally unjustifiable and, IMO, counterproductive to their stated aims, but (and I’m sure I’ve said this before) if you believe that 7/10 is proof that Hamas’ sole intent is the destruction of Israel, then Netanyahu’s response is justified and that’s a hard position for me to be ok with. The aim of this contributor is to promote the idea that this is not some Hollywood movie with clearly defined good guys and bad guys, it’s way more nuanced than that – I can very easily live with the contradiction of supporting Hamas’ stated aims and simultaneously condemn their actions, and the one is not an attempt to detract from the other.

“Why do these people not get the same sympathy as Palestinians do now? Because they fled the land to escape these incidents they now have no claim to it?”

For me, because colonial powers offered the Arabs their own states if they helped overthrow the Ottomans (which they did), then took half of Palestine and gave it to the Jews without Palestinians or their neighbours having any say in the matter, then the state of Israel expelled 700k Arabs, began importing refugees worldwide, fought several overt wars of expansion and long covertly expanded through illegal settlement, illegally occupied several territories it has no right to and oppressed all the Arabs it can in an attempt to drive them away and gain more territory.

I’m very grateful that Mark has allowed this thread to run and the contributors to it, it’s been interesting and insightful and conducted in a refreshingly adult manner, but I don’t think I have any more to add to the matter.

Israel was always going to respond to the attack from Hamas.

Hamas knew there would be a response. They are being influenced too much by Iran.

“if you believe that 7/10 is proof that Hamas’ sole intent is the destruction of Israel, then Netanyahu’s response is justified…”

That’s not true. It’s perfectly reasonable to believe that on one hand Hamas clearly intends to destroy Israel and also believe that Netanyahu’s response is unjustified, counterproductive, unlawful and genocidal. The second half of your sentence doesn’t necessarily lead on from the first (and I haven’t noticed anyone on here claiming that it does).

And it’s even odder to work backwards and suggest “I don’t believe Netanyahu’s response is justified, so that means Hamas doesn’t intend to destroy Israel”.

…if you believe that 7/10 is proof that Hamas’ sole intent is the destruction of Israel, then Netanyahu’s response is justified…snip

+1 They aren’t mutually inclusive, it isn’t a logical conclusion, rest easy 🙂

Thanks but I feel fairly confident that Hamas haven’t issued official statements calling for Jews to be killed…snip

Of course they haven’t, any organisation would avoid such a statement in the modern world.

Hamas, in common with most organisations, uses disingenuous official statements, e.g. Our Narrative…Operation Al-Aqsa Flood released by the Hamas Media Office after the Oct 7th attacks

“Therefore, the operation focused on destroying the Israeli army’s Gaza Division, the Israeli military sites stationed near the Israeli settlements around Gaza.” By attacking the Supernova music festival and killing 364 and kidnapping 40??

“Avoiding harm to civilians, especially children, women and elderly people is a religious and moral commitment by all the Al-Qassam Brigades’ fighters. We reiterate that the Palestinian resistance was fully disciplined and committed to the Islamic values during the operation and that the Palestinian fighters only targeted the occupation soldiers” Yocheved Lifschitz, an 85-year-old grandmother, her husband Oded and Nurit Cooper (female), 79, might disagree and were held captive for two weeks and more

“When speaking about Israeli civilians, it must be known that conscription applies to all Israelis above the age of 18 – males who served 32 months of military service and females who served 24 months – where all can carry and use arms.” The Supernova killing and kidnapping cannot be justified. Not all Israelis are conscripted for a variety of reasons, including religion, and not every victim was Israeli

“Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.” Intentions and outcomes; 75% of Israelis are Jewish, indiscriminate attacks against groups in Israel will inevitably kill Jewish people

I’m under no illusions about Benjamin Netanyahu, BTW

Israel was always going to respond to the attack from Hamas.

Hamas knew there would be a response.

So Israel is simply doing what Hamas expected them to do? I think I can agree with that. What Israel is currently doing is the greatest mistake it has ever made.

And on Melanie Phillips, she’s always been a hateful and twisted person. She was like that when she lived here.

Totally agree.

Not sure she’s ever been on the healthy side of any debate.

If the time stamp thing doesn’t work, 40 minutes in.

IDF waging war on children

I watched that Novara Media video and I’ll summarise it for the TLDR crowd:

She interviewed hundreds of Palestinians in the West Bank and not a single one expressed even the slightest animosity towards Jews, they just want to live alongside them in peace and harmony.

By contrast, every Israeli Jew she interviewed expressed a desire to ethnically cleanse the region of Arabs by implementing a ‘final solution.’

I’m not paraphrasing, they were her words not mine.

Im not sure that posting clips like that is really helping the thread.

Im not sure that posting clips like that is really helping the thread.

I am not sure that your rather selective synopsis helps the thread either. She claimed to have interviewed Palestinians in the West Bank over a period of a month, in contrast she said that she spent three hours interviewing Israelis in a square in Jerusalem.

I don’t think that it is inconceivable that during her time in the West Bank she didn’t meet any Palestinians who espoused genocide against Jews, Palestinians don’t generally seem to use that narrative even if some individuals might.

In contrast since Oct 7 there has been some dangerous genocidal rhetoric from Israeli leaders, political and military. So much so in fact that at the request of the South African government the International Court of Justice is investigating claims of incitement to commit genocide by Israeli politicians and military leaders.

It is reasonable to assume that these sort of sentiments filter down to many ordinary Israelis, governments generally tend to be more politically moderate than their voters.

She doesn’t say how many Israelis she was able to interview during that three hour period, presumably it could have been as little as a dozen, but I do think her claims that they all expressed genocidal tenancies is simply her personal take. I am willing to believe that they all possibly supported what the IDF are currently doing in Gaza, after all 80% of Israelis apparently do, which is what she interpreted as supporting genocide.

Personally I agree with the South African government”s case at the ICJ and I believe that what is currently occurring in Gaza is genocide. It is not unreasonable therefore to conclude that anyone supporting Israeli military action in Gaza is supporting genocide. Which btw is precisely why the UK government has recently been seeking legal advice on the issue of providing arms to Israel – because of the genocide allegation.

However she does seem to undermine the suggestion of complete Israeli unity over the issue by mentioning Israeli “leftists” which she seems to suggest are hated even more by right-wing zionists than Arabs.

As suggested earlier I personally don’t believe that Israeli public opinion would be as supportive of the military action in Gaza if they had greater access to the truth. There is after all a reason why the IDF targets journalists and the recent new law banning media operations which Israel considers hostile to the government – they have a problem with the truth.

This whole thread is a terrible idea.

This whole thread is a terrible idea.

Out of interest, why?

Personally, I’ve learnt a lot as I’ve been avoiding the news as it’s too grim.

I’ll admit, though, I don’t have a “side” in this. From what I can tell, both sides are as bad as one another though one side seems to have received a lot more “punishment” than the other…

I used to read the Ukraine thread but gave up on that a long time ago as that was pretty grim reading (in comparison to this one) and such threads are easy to ignore if needed/wanted.

I’d like to hear why it’s a terrible idea?

This thread is going the way of many politics threads in that a few familiar voices are taking over

Clearly we need a recruitment drive to bring more people who combine a love of MTB with a concern for humanity and a basic understanding of apartheid

Another attack on Palestinians by armed settlers, lifted from CNN, at least this attack made the news but nothing will be done to the armed Israeli settlers, after all its the Israeli government who gave them the guns in the first place.

Hundreds of armed Israeli settlers stormed a village in the occupied West Bank on Friday, setting fire to several homes and cars — and leaving at least one Palestinian dead — in one of the largest attacks by settlers this year, according to Palestinian officials.

The settlers attacked Al-Mughayyir village, east of Ramallah, raided homes and fired gunshots at residents, according to Amin Abu-Alia, the head of the village council. Videos obtained by CNN show parts of the village burning, with smoke billowing over several buildings and settlers lobbing rocks. Houses and cars are seen completely burnt up, with sounds of gunfire and clashes heard in the background.

So, I’ve not read much of this thread and admittedly have little knowledge of this part of the world. But what happens if/when Iran has a go at Israel?

I don’t think that it is inconceivable that during her time in the West Bank she didn’t meet any Palestinians who espoused genocide against Jews, Palestinians don’t generally seem to use that narrative even if some individuals might.

In contrast since Oct 7 there has been some dangerous genocidal rhetoric from Israeli leaders, political and military. So much so in fact that at the request of the South African government the International Court of Justice is investigating claims of incitement to commit genocide by Israeli politicians and military leaders.

It is reasonable to assume that these sort of sentiments filter down to many ordinary Israelis, governments generally tend to be more politically moderate than their voters.

Here we go again, making careful distinctions between “Palestinians” and “some Palestinians” but then in the next sentence extrapolating that because “some Israelis” have gone off the deep end then it surely is reasonable to assume that “ordinary Israelis” must feel the same.

I am not sure that your rather selective synopsis helps the thread either

Oh the irony…

So, I’ve not read much of this thread and admittedly have little knowledge of this part of the world. But what happens if/when Iran has a go at Israel?

It’s unlikely – although not impossible – that Iran will launch an attack themselves; they have too much to lose by entering into direct confrontation in Israel. For example, I’m sure the Israeli government are waiting for the slightest justification to head over there and sabotage/destroy the Uranium enrichment facilities Iran has.

Instead it’s likely to be a collection of Iran-backed militias, ISIS in Iraq and Syria and Hezbollah, and maybe the Houtis, that do Iran’s dirty work for them.Things have certainly been heating up quickly. We had 40 or so missiles from Hezbollah overnight, although these only hit farmland in the north-east of Israel, and there has been a significant increase in IDF activities in both Gaza, the West Bank and the Israel/Lebanon/Syria border area over the last 24 hours or so which is only going to inflame tensions. How Israel responds I’m not sure, but they have been increasing their armed forces number in the north significantly over the last few weeks so I wouldn’t rule out some kind of entry into Lebanon with the goal of pushing Hezbollah north of the Litani River.

Oh, and countless civilians on all sides will suffer. That seems to be the common thread running through all this.

It’s unlikely – although not impossible – that Iran will launch an attack themselves; they have too much to lose by entering into direct confrontation in Israel.

Interestingly, yesterday American Intelligence were suggesting that such an attack was imminent (suggesting that hundreds of drones and multiple cruise missile attacks would be used); they still seem to think that an attack is coming (at least that’s what they’re saying) – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68796363

Israel have been threatening military action against Iran for a while if their uranium enrichment (march towards the bomb) continues. I don’t know whether the attack on the Iranian consulate was deliberate provocation to enable this or not. As a rouge nuclear state, let’s hope that Israel don’t go down that route (highly unlikely but Netanyahu does make me nervous, he seems somewhat out of control).

Just to complicate matters further, it looks like an Israeli boy has gone missing in the West Bank and there have been clashes between West Bank Palestinians and Jewish settlers – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68803939

then in the next sentence extrapolating that because “some Israelis” have gone off the deep end then it surely is reasonable to assume that “ordinary Israelis” must feel the same.

I have no idea what you mean by “gone off the deep end”, can you explain?

I was referring to opinions polls which say that approximately  80% of Israelis support what the IDF are currently doing in Gaza, and that it is therefore reasonable to assume that if you asked a dozen random Israelis in some square in Jerusalem that they might all express support for what is happening in Gaza. 

We know no details of the experiences of the woman who was being interviewed in that clip so it is difficult to conclude that she must be lying. Maybe she was but there is no evidence that she must have been.

Oh the irony…

Gone on then, explain how expanding on the details of the interview, such as how long she spent in Jerusalem,  restricts the synopsis?

Oh, and countless civilians on all sides will suffer. That seems to be the common thread running through all this.

Really ? I thought the one startling fact about the last six months is how disproportionate civilian suffering has been.

The Israeli reluctance for a ceasefire seems to be driven by the fact that all the suffering is being experienced by Palestinian civilians.

Abby Martin started out her career as a 9/11 truther before moving to Russia Today. That’s enough detail for me.

That’s enough detail for me.

Even if you disagree with someones politics, or point of view,to get the picture of anything, you must look at both sides of any argument

We have to put a filter somewhere, given the vast quantities of news, information, misinformation, and outright cranks desperate for us to hear their opinions, and one place I usually draw the line is YouTube videos.

If something can’t be said better than a former 9/11 truther being interviewed by Ash Sarkar and published to YouTube, then struggle to see how it’s worth the time it’ll take to listen to it.

There are sides, yes, but they are also cranks, polemicists and click-farmers.

Oh, and countless civilians on all sides will suffer.

Well TBF the civilian toll on the Israeli side is very well known while the other very much isn’t due to the sheer scale and manner with which they were killed.

If something can’t be said better than a former 9/11 truther being interviewed by Ash Sarkar and published to YouTube, then struggle to see how it’s worth the time it’ll take to listen to it.

He’s right of course, 9/11 truthers are over 20 years out of date now… with that kind of timescale that you can successfully restore the reputation of one time war criminals such as Blair or Bush.

Ultimately, 9/11 liars are what we need to ensure the media’s portrayal of world events is adequately balanced

I have no idea what you mean by “gone off the deep end”, can you explain?

It’s fairly common vernacular meaning to take drastic action, or take an extreme viewpoint, or act in a reckless or agitated manner. For example, Moshe Feiglin saying “There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons… Gaza should be razed and Israel’s rule should be restored to the place. This is our country”.

We know no details of the experiences of the woman who was being interviewed in that clip so it is difficult to conclude that she must be lying.

If that’s the level of critical thinking required to make a statement then by the same measure it must be equally difficult to conclude that she is telling the truth, surely? And asking Jews about Palestinians whilst stood in one of the most fought over plots of land in world history, and not only that Jews in Zion Square, gathering place for the most politically vocal? No wonder she got some extreme views, and it highlights why opinion polls should be taken with a pinch of salt. For instance, you claim:

I don’t think that it is inconceivable that during her time in the West Bank she didn’t meet any Palestinians who espoused genocide against Jews, Palestinians don’t generally seem to use that narrative even if some individuals might.

But opinion polls show that 72% of Palestinians – including 85% of West Bank Palestinians, who Abby Martin clearly didn’t speak to – agree with the actions Hamas broadcast to the world on October 7th.

Oh, and the word “irony” was used in response to the word “selective”, not the word “synopsis”.

Out of interest, does anyone know if figures are available for the number of times Palestinians have made armed incursions into Israeli territory, vs the number of times Israelis have made armed incursions into Palestinian territory?

But opinion polls show that 72% of Palestinians – including 85% of West Bank Palestinians, who Abby Martin clearly didn’t speak to – agree with the actions Hamas broadcast to the world on October 7th.

I far as I am aware no one has claimed that the Oct 7 attack was an act of genocide, in contrast it is widely claimed that what is currently happening in Gaza is genocide.

Armed resistance against occupation and siege by a foreign invader is a recognised legal right under international law, genocide isn’t.

Ami Ayalon, the former head of Shin Bet –  Israeli internal state security,  has publicly stated that if he was a Palestinian would fight against Israel. Do you believe this means that he is advocating genocide against Israel?