Gaza

So given that Netanyahu is not beyond question, what questions should we be asking?

“It is possible – and that’s all I’m suggesting – that Israel thought it would be something small scale, easily contained…”

If that were the case, you’d expect some small scale preparation for containment, and you’d need the IDF and intelligence to be on board with fighting a “small, victorious war” to support the political ambitions of Netanyahu. The first didn’t happen, and the second seems very unlikely: Netanyahu is not a dictator, and in a small country with a citizen army, military adventurism comes with a high price. Israel is not Russia where the President can send thousands of poor young men into the meat grinder overnight and not face political consequences.

That certainly didn’t happen… instead, the IDF killed many of their own civilians, perhaps in part due to the policy of sending thousands of poor young men into the meatgrinder of national service

Jon Stewart checks in on the war in Gaza and examines how America's "values" stack up against its support of Israel pic.twitter.com/5IV7DyLnEE

— The Daily Show (@TheDailyShow) April 9, 2024

Another lie debunked,

No reports of Hamas targeting Palestinians assisting aid organizations, US humanitarian aid official says

From CNN’s Michael Conte

US officials have not seen evidence of Hamas targeting Palestinian civilians working with international aid organizations in Gaza, according to Samantha Power, administrator for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).

“That is not what our partners are reporting back to us,” Power said at a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing. She was being asked about such allegations by Democratic Rep. Kathy Manning.

Power added that US aid partners in Gaza are also not reporting that Hamas is impeding the distribution of humanitarian assistance. She said the Israel Defense Forces has also not been reporting such obstructions by Hamas.

“I, like you, would expect it would be, given what Hamas does otherwise targeting innocent civilians, using innocent civilians as human shields, but again — trusted partners like World Food Programme and UNICEF and others have not reported that Hamas is getting in the way of humanitarian assistance,” Power said.
Power previously testified that USAID has not received reports of Hamas “systematically” diverting food aid in Gaza.

“the policy of sending thousands of poor young men into the meatgrinder of national service”

This comment betrays a fundamental lack of knowledge on the topic being discussed. The IDF drafts Jewish women as well as Jewish men, and the rich as well as the poor (in fact, the haredim are among the poorest in Israeli society, and they’re not conscripted). Neither is conscription into the IDF being thrown into the meatgrinder: in 2022, 3 personnel were killed in combat. In 2021, it was …1.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-726526

Into the meatgrinder does not necessarily mean to their death. The process of training a soldier to fight, kill others and be possibly killed is mentally hard and dehumanising. This is why some of those who get invalided out after service tend to fall out of society and end up living rough, with drink or substance problems and suffer disproportionatley from suicide. They don’t get the same decompression that normal retirees from service receive.

The IDF drafts Jewish women as well as Jewish men, and the rich as well as the poor

Ah, I see… so Israel’s national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age

Yep, that makes sense now

Some interesting comments too:

I am in this video, the boy in the black shirt. It isnt that we havent yet been exposed to the biased opinions of our educators and educational material. We have been part of the corrupting system for the past 16 years of our lives and the fact that we have and still are standing up against it is what differentiates us. This is mostly due to the environment we are in and the fact that we have the opportunity to be exposed to this kind of material.

As a Palestinian it is very touching when Israelis see this conflict for what it really is, and this is when real change will begin to happen when people realize the truth and reality about Israels occupation. Of course we need changing attitudes on the Palestinian side also but that will never happen until the Palestinians have hope in order to free their minds of a hatred of Israel which is manifested through the daily oppression of the Palestinians. We need peace before it is too late.

These kids give me hope for the future. Hard not to feel this way about your country when the curtain gets pulled back and the brutality and manipulation becomes explicit. I have the same problem. Being an American and having learned to read between some lines (not all the lines for sure…I’m far from perfectly informed, or even well informed for that matter) with the help of some “subversive” authors, I have been changed permanently by it. Suffice to say, I don’t sing patriotic songs anymore.

“Ah, I see… so Israel’s national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age. Yep, that makes sense now”

Everyone is entitled to draw their own inferences and come to their own conclusions about whether an action is morally right or wrong. But we can probably all agree that the starting position should be facts (especially when they’re freely available, online, in English) rather than stereotypes, misconceptions or ignorance.

There is a lot of Dunning-Kruger Effect on display in this thread, where some of the strongest opinions are matched with the weakest knowledge of the subject matter.

Brilliant interview with Bassem Youssef on the Ways to change the world podcast

Ah, I see… so Israel’s national policy is to indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset from a young age

We have 2-3 generations of extended family in Israel, despite national service, your perceived national policy is failing miserably.

indoctrinate the vast majority of the population into a military mindset

your perceived national policy is failing miserably.

I would call the 70-80% of the population in Israel who support their government’s military action and objectives “the vast majority”. It certainly puts them at odds with global public opinion and even the majority of Americans.

Israel has over a period of 75 years gone from being a fairly left-wing country to now one of the most right-wing countries in the Western world. Every new generation appears to be more right-wing than the previous. I suspect indoctrination from an early age is a significant reason for this.

Although I am obviously pleased that your extended family might be part of the 20% of Israelis who do not accept this military mindset MCTD

Israeli public opinion has to date shown itself largely impervious to US and other international pressure, and support for the Gaza war currently hovers at around 80%. Even more concerning for Washington’s hopes of containing the conflict, there is also more than 70% Israeli public support for a large-scale military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon – something Washington has so far managed to forestall.

In Israel itself, pro-war demonstrators are far more in evidence than anti-war ones. Israeli settlers and rightwing activists have focused their protests on Unrwa over the past week, blocking the entrances to its Jerusalem office. The protesters portrayed the UN ceasefire resolution as an attack against Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/31/israel-alone-allies-fears-grow-over-conduct-and-legality-of-war-in-gaza#:~:text=Israeli%20public%20opinion%20has%20to,currently%20hovers%20at%20around%2080%25.

But, but, but ….  the muppets supporting a Hezbollah offensive will be called up for action. The chaps north of the border aren’t just a bunch of lads with stones and molotovs, it’ll be carnage for both sides.

Israeli public opinion has to date shown itself largely impervious to US and other international pressure, and support for the Gaza war currently hovers at around 80%. Even more concerning for Washington’s hopes of containing the conflict, there is also more than 70% Israeli public support for a large-scale military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon – something Washington has so far managed to forestall.

In Israel itself, pro-war demonstrators are far more in evidence than anti-war ones. Israeli settlers and rightwing activists have focused their protests on Unrwa over the past week, blocking the entrances to its Jerusalem office. The protesters portrayed the UN ceasefire resolution as an attack against Israel.

As to the support for the war and rise of facistic tendencies as the Israeli state has grown it has been noted that the increase of settlers and settlements has largely driven this trend, there was a really interesting and in depth article regard this point in Haaretz back before the October 7th massacre, I’ll see if I can find it in my bookmarks or online.

Hear from two American surgeons just returned from Gaza

 the 70-80% of the population in Israel who support their government’s military action

In much of their propaganda and when they celebrate their terrorist attacks , Hamas and the Iranian govt are often calling on the death of Jews, not Israelis or right wing Israelis specifically, or Settlers, but Jews. It could be that Israelis support military action because of that.

The situation is  intractable because despite the language of both sides being often couched in terms of territory or land, at it’s heart its ethno-religious conflict, and the desired outcome for the hard-line elements of both sides is the utter oblivion of the other.

I don’t mean to sound like a Hamas spokesperson on here but clause 16 of their 2017 charter reads –

“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”

I can’t speak for what they say elsewhere.

I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any “we don’t hate Jews” that chapter 16 was trying to claim.

Here’s a notable comment from senior Hamas official Fathi Hamid in 2019:

“All of you 7 million Palestinians abroad, enough of the warming up. You have Jews everywhere and we must attack every Jew on the globe by way of slaughter and killing, if God permit.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathi_Hamad

“I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any “we don’t hate Jews” that chapter 16 was trying to claim.”

I daresay Hamas has a strong dislike for Jews, but that’s somewhat different to saying that Hamas is specifically calling for the death of the Jewish people.

Here’s a link to a Times of Israel page where Hamid draws back (and Hamas distance themselves) from a particularly anti-Semitic statement he made.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-distances-itself-from-official-who-urged-murder-of-jews-everywhere/

TheFlyingOx :I think October 7th pretty much shit all over any “we don’t hate Jews” that chapter 16 was trying to claim.

As a counter to that I guess its legitimate to surmise that the current Israeli government along with the IDF have a very similar attitude to Palestinians

I see that Article 25 of the North Korean Constitution shall continually increase the living standards of its people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_North_Korea

That, too, might be one of those occasions in which you judge people by their actions and not their printed words.

Back in the day when the Hamas english language website was easily accessible and for several years I would every now and then read their news and communiques.

A couple of things always struck me, one was how excellent the English translations were, presumably done by native English speakers whose knowledge of English appeared to be better than mine.

And secondly how they never ever mentioned the words Jews nor Israel. The references to the people were always zionists, or colonialists, or occupiers. Israel was always referred to as the “zionist entity”.

It was clearly an obsession of theirs to never refer to Jews and Israel as the enemy. So I don’t know where you get the Idea that Hamas specifically calls for the death of Jews Nick.

I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews. I don’t know about Iran but I would also be surprised if official Iranian government statements specifically calls for the death of Jews. The comments of individuals don’t count especially as even Israeli ministers have made horrendous comments concerning wiping out and killing Palestinians, something which the International Court of Justice is currently investigating.

Having said all that, what Hamas and the Iranian government might have or not have said is totally irrelevant to point that according to opinion polls about 80% of Israelis support the current military operations in Gaza which has cost the lives of over 30 thousand Palestinians, 70% of them women and children.

Public opinion globally is appalled by the death of almost 14 thousand children and now the growing number of those facing starvation, what Hamas or Iran might have said doesn’t come into it, why would it?

So why do apparently 80% of Israelis support what is going on in Gaza? It is truly depressing. For me the explanation is obvious – a lifetime of indoctrination and dehumanisation of Palestinians. It is certainly not because they are Jewish.

So why do apparently 80% of Israelis support what is going on in Gaza? It is truly depressing. For me the explanation is obvious – a lifetime of indoctrination and dehumanisation of Palestinians. It is certainly not because they are Jewish.

Christian fundamentalists in America, Jewish fundamentalists in Israel

Same result.

@pondo I’m aware of the walk-back, but those comments are pretty extreme. Well beyond an ‘I misspoke’

My point was to back up nickc’s comment that Israeli politics don’t exist in a vacuum. Extremism on one side fosters extremism on the other.

Each side has both agency and responsibility. Comments like “I suspect indoctrination from an early age is a significant reason for this” ignore that fact.

It really isn’t somafunk, Joe Biden is not a fundamental Christian and yet his support is absolutely indispensable to Israel. And nearly half of Israelis are secular.

Religion has little to do with Zionism.

Here’s a link to a Times of Israel page where Hamid draws back (and Hamas distance themselves) from a particularly anti-Semitic statement he made.

In 2019 when that comment was made Hamas was not classified as a terrorist organisation by the then Tory government.

I suspect that it would have been if it was calling for the death of all Jews.

I think its partly to do with the Jews want a country of their own and are not going to compromise in any way shape or form.

We know about the holocaust, but there have been other incidents where Jews have been attacked and murdered, and in many instances in the most brutal and bestial manner. So previously being a people who were spread out amongst the world, there was more chance of them continuing to be used as scapegoats for whatever regime.

.

I can see from the Israeli perspective that they cannot share a land with a people who want them dead, and have continued to try to do that and think that again from the Israeli perspective its down to them or us. They don’t want their lessons of the past repeated.

they cannot share a land with a people who want them dead

When you take land away from people their opinions don’t normally count.

Perhaps the map below partially explains why most Israelis are skeptical of a one state solution in which it’s suggested they should live in a binational or Palestinian state. (Obviously the caption is defective – these are not all Arab countries). This is all after the Holocaust in Europe, obviously.

There is a lot of Dunning-Kruger Effect on display in this thread, where some of the strongest opinions are matched with the weakest knowledge of the subject matter.

Louder!

I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews

This took all of about 5 seconds of Googling. It’s the first one I found of countless examples of the same thing

Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”

Israel was always referred to as the “zionist entity”

Whenever Hamas or Iran use the word Zionist, it is (like the ultra right wing of the US using the word Globalist) interchangeable with, and meant to be heard [a dog whistle] as Jew.

It really isn’t somafunk, Joe Biden is not a fundamental Christian and yet his support is absolutely indispensable to Israel. And nearly half of Israelis are secular.

Religion has little to do with Zionism.

I was making a reference to the ease that religious fundamentalism in politics is fashioning the narrative that “others” are bad and coming to take everything, look at politics on the right in the USA, religious fundamentalists are driving the Republican Party, look at politics on the right in Israel, the rise of the militant religious zionist movement in power.

we could have a useful side thread about the use of anti-Zionist as a stand in for anti-Jewish in Soviet pro-Arabic propaganda after the USSR realised that Israel was moving towards the USA in the late 50 and 60’s. which informed much of the views of nascent Arabic Nationalist movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_anti-Zionism

This took all of about 5 seconds of Googling. It’s the first one I found of countless examples of the same thing

But you haven’t done it have you? What you appear to have done is exactly what I asked you not to do. To remind you:

I would be interested in seeing any official Hamas statement which clearly calls for the death of Jews. I don’t know about Iran but I would also be surprised if official Iranian government statements specifically calls for the death of Jews. The comments of individuals don’t count especially as even Israeli ministers have made horrendous comments concerning wiping out and killing Palestinians, something which the International Court of Justice is currently investigating.

Goodness gracious, surely it can’t be a slow attempt to frame all criticism of a heavily armed colonial nation that continues to encroach on the territory of those who dwelled there before the nation was formed as anti semitic.

No no, that would never happen

we could have a useful side thread about the use of anti-Zionist as a stand in for anti-Jewish

No it wouldn’t be useful at all.

https://www.instagram.com/middleeasteye/reel/C5oYu3Hpqeh/

Its a sermon, he’s a religious leader, it’s not “individual comment”

No it wouldn’t be useful at all.

Why not? The US support of Israel is open for discussion, why not the use of anti Jewish propaganda spread by the Soviet Union in the 60’s in Arabic states once they realised that Israel was moving towards the US and not to them as they originally hoped. It forms pretty much the basis for the use of the word Zion as a proxy for Jew in much of Islamic terrorist rhetoric.

Its a sermon, he’s a religious leader, it’s not “individual comment”

Is an  official statement from Hamas calling for all Jews to be killed really that hard to find?