These days, warfare is something taxpayers subsidize in other countries

on which note:

Whilst a lot of this debate is complex, there  is one thing which is not – there is no excuse for genocide.

There is much anthropological literature on ‘primitive communism’ that rejects the imposition of bourgeois values on to ancient societies.

Someone’s been reading their David Graeber. 😃 You can’t take the example of 16-17thC East Coast Indigenous Americans and cast that example to cover everything and everyone in every continent from 200,000 years ago to date.

Netanyahu has been PM for nearly 17 years, so the notion that the current crisis is the result of some aberration of the system, and Israel is full of lovely peace-loving folk is … shall we say … unrealistic.

There are less antagonistic politicians who could be elected. One of his first decisions in 1996 was like “throwing a burning match into an area filled with flammable material,” wrote the influential Israeli daily newspaper Ha’aretz” and was seen as the “three-month-old Israeli government’s failure to honor both the letter and the spirit of the 1993 Oslo accords”

https://web.archive.org/web/20121020014235/http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/macleans/israel-opens-disputed-tunnel

“I’ve seen no evidence that Otzi died as a result of warfare”

It was a pretty annoying song but all the same warfare would be an extreme response.

There are less antagonistic politicians who could be elected.

There are, but the Israelis have democratically chosen Netanyahu over and over again. So I don’t buy the apologists’ line that Israel really wants peace and justice.

Well, not really. the Knesset is PR so he often wins on razor thin margins; for instance 40,000  votes and 23% of the vote last election a couple of years ago for his party. In the trad left, Meretz and Labour have split, and there’s been a rule change about how much of the vote you need to get a seat. Meretz won 3.2% and an Arabic party (who also used to be in coalition with meretz and labour ) won just 2.9% of the vote…All of those votes; discarded.

If they hadn’t, the Knesset would’ve had a 60:60 seat tie.

there’s 40 or so parties running in each election, the top five of  the “Netanyahu side” got 49.6% and the same of the ‘left’ got 48.9%. So to say that he gets voted in over and over again is overly simplistic and misses the nuance that a good percentage of ‘Israel’ really wants peace and justice, including some of the right wing parties in his own current coalition. How what’s happened since last October will effect next elections, who the hells knows. I think its probably curtains for Netanyahu though.

Everyone will need to get behind me in the line of folks ready to criticise Netanyahu and call Israel what it undoubtedly is; an apartheid state, but that’s not what more than half (at last election) want for their country and they want to change it, so whether you ‘buy’ it or not, that’s the inconveniently sloppy reality, the world after all doesn’t often fall neatly to good guy- bad guy narratives. I think we forget that victims can be abusers and vice versa.

There are, but the Israelis have democratically chosen Netanyahu over and over again. So I don’t buy the apologists’ line that Israel really wants peace and justice.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what either you or I think, ask the “71% (who) think Netanyahu should resign either immediately or right after war” https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-71-think-netanyahu-should-resign-either-immediately-or-right-after-war/

Deleted my reply. I think I’ll step away in deference to Mark.

I noticed a couple of ‘hopeful’ stories in the news today, possibly as a result of the horror of what’s going on in Gaza.

If looks like both Australia and Ireland are prepared to consider and support Palestinian statehood.

I’ve always wondered why, when a two state solution is always discussed when peace talks are mentioned, that Palestine is never recognised as a true state (the USA effectively votes as if they were Israel at the UN).

Obviously Hamas are a sticking point and not easily resolved, but it could be a start.

If looks like both Australia and Ireland are prepared to consider and support Palestinian statehood.

I’ve always wondered why, when a two state solution is always discussed when peace talks are mentioned, that Palestine is never recognised as a true state (the USA effectively votes as if they were Israel at the UN).

The U.S. put a lot of work into a two-state solution in the 1990s so “considering and supporting” Palestinian statehood isn’t really any change. Palestine isn’t recognized as a state because it isn’t one. It would need to have agreed borders, but a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state would require recognizing Israel’s right to coexist peacefully (in other words, Palestinian militant groups and their backers in Iran, etc. would have to stop launching attacks on Israel.) So, Palestine can’t become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel, are removed from the equation and replaced by Palestinian leaders who want a peace treaty.

Thirty years ago, that looked like it might have been possible, but the negotiations failed and the situation is even worse now. Israeli moderates have been sidelined by right-wing factions so the situation now is that events are driven by the most extreme groups on both sides, groups who benefit from conflict and chaos, and they aren’t going to just step aside and let moderates negotiate a way of the war.

Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd.

The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip, What will Iran do next? They’re the puppet masters of this war.

Worth remembering the treatment that Bomber Command got after WW2. When they finally got a memorial, anti-war group Pledge Peace Union criticised it as a “monument of shame” for turning “war crimes” into something heroic.  Stephen Fry’s “Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys” explored the subject in more detail.

In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks, and the Scottish government pledging £500,000 to UNWRA on Oct 14.

“Palestine can’t become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel…”

We’ve been through this already but no it isn’t.

“Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd.”

Related to them not committing genocide.

The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip

You are an Israeli government spokesperson and I claim my 5 acres of appropriated Palestinian land.

In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks, and the Scottish government pledging £500,000 to UNWRA on Oct 14.

OK, I’ll bite but I really should just ignore obvious troll

Is there really?, out of 13,000 UNRWA workers employed by the organisation inside Gaza the Israeli government alleged that 12 employees were complicit, yet the Israeli government had the details of every single Gazan UNWRA worker and gave them security clearance – has this report been independently verified yet as we all know how much the Israeli government and IDF lies.  I say Israel played a blinder with that accusation as funding and the ability of UNWRA was severely curtailed which served the Israeli government very well, it certainly got talked about around the world.

I gave money/donations to UNWRA amongst other other organisations, you want to investigate me?, and the Scottish government giving £500,000, it should have been more.

UNRWA state released on 8th April – Funding

Glancing through this thread there are the questions about Israel’s right to even exist, naturally. Funnily enough, believe it or not, history goes back further than the 20th Century. The Province of Judaea was renamed Syria Palaestina by the Romans to humiliate and dispossess the Jews from their land, after putting down the rebellion. They destroyed around 1000 villages and killed half a million Jews, ethnically cleansing the region, which was then colonised by people of Greek origin.

Egypt still has a closed border to Gazan refugees but oddly attracts zero criticism from anti Israeli keyboard warriors. Odd.

You clearly havent been paying attention from behind your own keyboard. They have been criticised but oddly enough they obviously dont have the same level of responsibility. Aside from anything else whilst unpleasant its not really unexpected that they would have concerns about how long those refugees would be displaced for.

The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip, What will Iran do next? They’re the puppet masters of this war.

The evidence for this is? Whilst they obviously benefit from continuing conflict its not obvious why they would have wanted the fullscale conflict which erupted. If they had orchestrated it I would have expected some additional actions on their part.

Worth remembering the treatment that Bomber Command got after WW2.

Not sure what your point is here?

In the UK there are questions to be answered about the allegation that 12 employees of UNWRA were complicit in the 7 Oct attacks

They have about 30k staff of which about 13k are based in Gaza. So it really wouldnt be surprising if there were some involved. So what questions need answering?

They destroyed around 1000 villages and killed half a million Jews, ethnically cleansing the region, which was then colonised by people of Greek origin.

In that case, all civilized nations should join the US in prioritizing arming Israel over domestic healthcare henceforth, in case any Palestinian familes who happen to be minding their own business escape punishment for crimes of the past that they had absolutely no part in.

OK, I’ll bite but I really should just ignore obvious troll

Oh dear! Yes, the measured, intelligent response we’ve come to expect, that can’t even manage to get past one sentence without an insult. Someone with a different point of view to you isn’t “a troll”. It’s just someone with a different point of view to you. Imagine that!

Yes I do think questions must be asked of where public funds go and why, especially given Hamas’s track record of misappropriation. what you do with your money really isn’t something I’ll lose sleep over.

I applaud your efforts to root out corruption and seek out misappropriation of funds!

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-jerusalem-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-42d795e65dc14376ad6301aa99275987

Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit’s recommendations of fraud, bribery and breach of trust charges on Thursday concluded a two-year investigation into a range of corruption allegations against Netanyahu. The cases centered on the leader’s backroom dealings with Israeli newspaper publishers and a telecom company aimed at scoring more favorable coverage, as well as with a Hollywood media mogul who allegedly showered him with hundreds of thousands of dollars in illicit gifts.

These may be the weightiest corruption allegations against Netanyahu, but they are hardly the first.

Throughout his decade in office, the embattled Netanyahu has encountered a series of embarrassing scandals. He and his wife Sara, who has been separately indicted for alleged overspending, have gained a reputation for leading indulgent lives at public expense.

The IDF have now all but withdrawn from the Gaza strip

Word on the street is this is in preparation for an offensive on Rafah. They are still present around almost the entire border of the Gaza strip, and maintain a line that completely cuts off the northern third of Gaza from the south, from the 1948 Armistice Line to the Mediterranean coast.

israelpalestine.liveuamap.com seems to be a source of decent, up-to-date unfiltered news and tweets direct from sources on all sides. It’s certainly keeping me up to date with what to expect in the next week or so…

“Palestine can’t become a state until groups like Hamas, whose reason for existence to to destroy Israel…”

We’ve been through this already but no it isn’t.

Hamas’ stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?

Best ask those who fund their activities…

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/

Wars help hide political scandals. The ongoing Israeli assault on Gaza has been singularly useful to prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in sidelining popular anger at his government’s numerous failings. The massive protests against Netanyahu’s authoritarian attempts to weaken the courts dwindled after Hamas October 7 attack, although there are signs they are resuming force. The intelligence failures that allowed the October 7 attack to take place have received some press attention—but have yet to be the focus of sustained political ire.

The same is true of Netanyahu’s longstanding policy of bolstering Hamas rule in Gaza, including encouraging Israel’s de facto ally Qatar to finance the terrorist organization. While the much-respected Israeli newspaper Haaretz has covered this issue, it has been largely ignored by the international press.

On Sunday, The New York Times gave new prominence to the long-standing Netanyahu-Hamas connection in a detailed and lengthy report. According to the newspaper:

Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials.

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip—money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

According to the Times, Israeli intelligence agents traveled into Gaza with a Qatari official carrying suitcases filled with cash to disperse money. Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu’s position: “One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.” If the extremist Hamas ruled Gaza, then the Palestinian Authority—a compromised comprador government with a tenuous hold on the West Bank—would be further weakened. This, according to Brom, would allow Netanyahu to say, “I have no partner.”

“Hamas’ stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map”

D’you know, I’m not sure it IS their stated intent, at least not explicitly – it defines Palestine as you have and clearly states their aim is to liberate Palestine but it also acknowledges that a Palestine restored to 1967 borders is the “formula of national consensus”. I think the amibiguity is deliberate.

This discussion, while still raising interesting and relevant points on both sides, is recently starting to degenerate a bit…
People tend to respond to things by dodging the question and saying “oh but XYZ also does it”

“Hamas is bad because X”
“but what about Israel”

“Israel did X”
“but what about Hamas!”

etc

One example: (there are more)
Q: How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?
A: Best ask those who fund their activities…

It’s possible to talk about both without resorting to politicians’ annoying non-answers…

That being said, it does seem to be the ones with entrenched opinions for/against one side or the other who behave like this, and a thank you to most people here with a more balanced viewpoint (even if you are more ‘pro’ one side or the other, this does not preclude balanced discussion and seeing the other’s point of view)

it also acknowledges that a Palestine restored to 1967 borders is the “formula of national consensus”

I don’t think it does though. We’re reading their Charter from our perspective, where borders and lands etc. were as stated in various post-WWI declarations. The Hamas Charter chapter 18 says they do not recognise any of the various laws and documents and treaties that resulted in the creation of “Israel” as a safe place for Jews, nor the creation of any borders or any distribution of land. We should be reading their charter as if the Balfour Declaration and what followed never existed, because that’s the mindset of those who wrote it.

Hence Hamas is the perfect vehicle for the Israeli state to justify continued apartheid and collective punishment of the Palestinians, whilst continually sidestepping progress towards a 2 state solution and continuing an aggressive settlement policy

Which leads us to the question;

In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?

“I don’t think it does though. We’re reading their Charter from our perspective, where borders and lands etc. were as stated in various post-WWI declarations. The Hamas Charter chapter 18 says they do not recognise any of the various laws and documents and treaties that resulted in the creation of “Israel” as a safe place for Jews, nor the creation of any borders or any distribution of land. We should be reading their charter as if the Balfour Declaration and what followed never existed, because that’s the mindset of those who wrote it.”

I think clause 20 fairly explicitly does –

“20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.

<b>However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.</B>”

(My linebreak and failed attempt to bold)

For me, saying “Palestine is defined by these margins, we want an entirely free and self-governed Palestine but we recognise that there’s a national consensus on the 1967 borders” is a step towards recognising that compromise is necessary for there to be a solution. But what do I know – likely that’s just my unwavering positivity. 🙂

In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?

Because it’s already been done on this and the previous closed threads?

In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?

When they are backed with something credible

In what circumstance would multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels with the full knowledge of Netanyahu not be relevant here?

No one said it’s not relevant to the subject, sure it is (if discussed properly etc etc yes Mark 😉)

However you posted it as a direct answer to:

Hamas’ stated intent as per their 2017 re-jigged charter is a reunification of Palestine as a single sovereign state from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west, and from Umm al-Rashrash (Eilat) in the south to Ras al-Naqurah (Kfar Rosh HaNikra) in the north. That covers the entirety of the country of Israel. How do you think Hamas can achieve this without removing Israel from the map?

In that context it’s irrelevant.

I’m sure Hamas would be very happy to take Israeli money AND remove them from the map!

Hence Hamas is the perfect vehicle for the Israeli state

Can you stop inserting this conspiracy theory into an otherwise rational, interesting, informative yet heartfelt thread. Please.

As the administrators of Gaza, multiple sources of income have been made available to Hamas. Israeli governments have sought to block much of this funding (and are criticised for doing so) and allowed others (and criticised for that as well). None of that means that Hamas is doing Israel’s bidding.

If you have issue with the facts presented, it’s probably best taking it up with the Israeli generals and members of the Israeli intelligence services who have put forward these accounts.

I’m not disputing facts (that Qatar have been putting money into Gaza, and security for Qatari officials entering Gaza is provided by Israel). It’s what you draw from that which is the conspiracy theory: the idea that the attacks on Israel are either orchestrated or allowed by Israel itself.

Edit: nevermind, for risk of falling foul of Post #1

When it comes to it, the vast majority of people responding to this thread are relying on 2nd hand information; admittedly, I am not Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom, but his analysis seems perfectly plausible.

Are you suggesting that of all people, Netanyahu is beyond questioning?

Are you suggesting that of all people, Netanyahu is beyond questioning?

No one is suggesting that.

“multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels”

The source quoted does not say that Israeli intelligence funded Hamas, and neither does it suggest that Israeli intelligence controlled Hamas. It says that Israel allowed Qatar to part fund the Gaza administration and Hamas. That is materially different. The reasons why Netanyahu thought this was a good idea, and why it was not at all a good idea, have already been discussed above.

It’s what you draw from that which is the conspiracy theory: the idea that the attacks on Israel are either orchestrated or allowed by Israel itself.

I’m going to be controversial here. I’m not going full conspiracy, but I’m surprised so many refuse to consider that there may a small element to this opinion.

There’s no doubt Israel had warning that Hamas were preparing something. It is possible – and that’s all I’m suggesting – that Israel thought it would be something small scale, easily contained, and give them a chance to justify going after Hamas, giving them a military mission, and get popular opinion behind a struggling and unpopular government.

I don’t believe the Israelis would have allowed something on this scale to happen, let alone been actively complicit in allowing something this happen. I’m just saying they may have massively underestimated what Hamas were capable of.

It’s a possibility, we’ll probably never know, but struggling regimes have made tragic mistakes before.

Don’t think that’s too controversial MoreCash, probably the way most informed people view it, a political miscalculation rather than a grand conspiracy theory.

Like Hamas, the current Israeli government opposes a two state solition and exploiting the differences between Fatah and Hamas suited their purpose.

And on the topic of a two state solution… In he unlikely event of it ever happening, how long would it be before a two state solution became a three state solution?  Much as happened with the partition of India that led to he creation of West Pakistan and East Pakistan, only for a civil war to break out that saw the breaking away of East Pakistan, forming of the  state of Bangladesh.

multiple reports of Israeli intelligence funding Hamas via backchannels

Yep… I stand by that

Impressed that such reasonable discussion is being had; all too often people try and imply I’m suggesting something more elaborate; both MoreCash and inkster have made reasonable and concise analyses