Gaza

Now is a good time to invest in the arms trade… business is always good, but with recent developments, it should soon be even better!!

Not forgetting of course that the majority of the big players have had a vast amount of low cost R&D suppressing the Palestinian population with full backing of western counterparts

It could have been the Saudis?

Not the IDF

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202404043146

No not the IDF but the Saudi royal family which doesn’t support the people of Palestine, hates the Iranians, and despite everything that has happened in the last six months still wants to normalise relations with a regime that has killed thousands of innocent civilians.

And which of course murders its own citizens and chops their bodies up if they don’t agree with them.

The source claimed Saud al-Qahtani, the crown prince’s information tsar, who was among two senior officials removed in connection with the Khashoggi affair, was involved in the funding behind Iran International TV.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/31/concern-over-uk-based-iranian-tv-channels-links-to-saudi-arabia

And which of course murders its own citizens and chops their bodies up if they don’t agree with them.

Like Iran does? 

This one is clearly the most infamous, I doubt they’ve stopped altogether. I doubt there’s a regime in the entire region that doesn’t have blood on its hands.

No not the IDF but the Saudi royal family…

I gave three links. Two were anti-Iran, Iran Intl. and Saba, but the 3rd was the Hezbollah-owned Al-Manar. It’s also been reported by the pro-Iran Al Mayadeen, citing the same statement credited to (and not contradicted by) Hamas’s military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

It doesn’t mean I think the Damascus consulate attack was a good idea, but it does explain some of the wider context of provocation and escalation.

Like Iran does?

Yeah I guess so. Do you think that a regime which murders its own citizens and chops their bodies up if they don’t agree with them is a reliable source of information?

Hamas and Tehran are not close. They are religiously different (and religion is extremely important to both of them) and they are culturally/racially different – Iranians are not Arab. Which goes some way in explaining why they previously strongly disagreed with each other over support for the Syrian regime.

It serves Iran’s interests to arm Hamas in a similar way that it serves the United States to arm Israel. But Hamas still acts independently in the same way as Israel does. Hamas is fighting to free Palestine of Israeli occupation, they aren’t fighting and dying for Iran.

445 posts so far regarding the atrocities by Hamas and Israel and thread is still open, well done peeps.

Yes, good point @ernielynch, we’d do well to remember that while they may share a common goal and indulge in similar rhetoric, they’re separate “actors” with their own policies, decisions and preferred outcomes. They may use each other (like Israel secretly funding Hamas) to further their own interests, but only if those align, and in ways we (on a bike forum and reading selected events in the news) can only guess at.

“(like Israel secretly funding Hamas)”

This didn’t happen. Been discussed ad nauseum above.

OK, cool, thanks for your input…

Me: "Do you believe Netanyahu deliberately propped up Hamas in Gaza all these years?"

Former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert: "Yes… long before Oct 7th, Netanyahu downgraded the PA & almost inevitably upgraded Hamas."

Full #MehdiUnfiltered interview at Zeteo:https://t.co/lyEjg9lrEA pic.twitter.com/RfvYcwKcgY

— Mehdi Hasan (@mehdirhasan) April 16, 2024

“(like Israel secretly funding Hamas)” This didn’t happen. Been discussed ad nauseum above.

JHJ, from what I can see Israel didn’t fund Hamas, but they did allow funds to reach Hamas, which is a subtle but important difference.

Benjamin Netanyahu didn’t want a Palestinian State and he divided the West Bank and Gaza so that they weren’t strong enough to form a single state.

He did this by “promoting” the least likely contender, Hamas in Gaza, to an organisation that Israel negotiated with and “demoted” the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank.

Qatar funded Hamas, which maintained the ceasefire, while Israel granted work permits to people in Gaza which put more money into their economy. This effectively weakened PA by under-funding the West Bank government

The problem was that Hamas were able to train, build military infrastructure and became strong enough to launch the Oct 7th attack

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

It goes way before Netanyahu, Hamas is Israel’s “creation”:

https://archive.li/2023.11.06-031512/https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with “Yassins,” primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.

To be fair to Israel this was happening at a time when the United States, the UK, France, etc, were helping Islamic fundamentalists such as Osama bin Laden to fight the secular left wing government in Afghanistan.

The Israelis simply used the same tactics.

Edit: It’s worth remembering that during this time Israel was also Iran’s main arms supplier. Although in this case Israel was helping the Islamic Republic of Iran fight a secular Middle East government.

Recent history of the Middle East is the history of hypocrisy and double standards.

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation of how the October incursion by Hamas into Israel was executed with virtually no initial resistance? I cycled through Israel in 2019 and have never seen anything like it – it’s basically a militarised state. From Tel Aviv to the south, there wasn’t a day that passed without a strong reminder of military presence in the country. Squadrons of fighter jets would be roaring overhead daily, military vehicles were always present on the ground, and transport hubs were always full of 18-year-olds armed with M16s, presumably returning home from military service.

Some nights I was terrified I would be crushed to death by some reckless squaddie in an APC or armoured vehicle, as you could hear them buzzing around at night, especially near the border with the West Bank. One night I remember they were so close I could see the red glowing ends of their cigarettes (whether they saw me or not I have no idea). In the area to the south of Tel Aviv, I cycled through regions where I feared there was an actual war going on (sounds of heavy artillery and gunfire at night, dogs barking, etc., it was terrifying). I met the IDF daily. It seemed impossible to avoid them. When I heard that hundreds of men had invaded in motorised paragliders, golf buggies, bicycles, etc., I initially thought it was a joke (sadly not).

It’s very long but I watched 15 minutes in for ten minutes and it is very interesting. Col Jacques Baud claims that Iran achieved all its objectives. He also claims that by the time the ballistic missiles arrived Israel had no more anti missile capabilities and that if Iran decided to launch a full scale missile attack Israel would be overwhelmed. Something which he claims Israel is aware of now after what happened a couple of nights ago.

He also says that an intelligence facility in Tel Aviv was hit, which I hadn’t heard before. He says that every target the Iranians had were hit.

Hamas was not created, funded, or instructed by Israel to attack it.

The conditions that led to a Muslim Brotherhood off shoot being the main power in Palestine can be laid at a succession of governments, both in Israel and neighbouring states (but not the USA in this instance). So, yes, Israeli governments have been complicit in allowing Hamas to operate and grow politically. But they have not armed it. Not funded it. Not instigated an attack on Israeli citizens. Not deliberately allowed an attack on Israeli citizens.

Hamas should not be let off the hook with insinuations and suggestions that they are part of some Israeli plot.

“Do you think that a regime which murders its own citizens and chops their bodies up if they don’t agree with them is a reliable source of information?”

… and yet you appear to believe that Jacques Baud is?

and yet you appear to believe that Jacques Baud is?

Do I? I repeatedly said that he makes “claims”, read my post. It is up to you whether you dismiss the claims or not.

Personally I don’t believe the Israeli and US claims that the Iranian attack was a complete failure, although obviously they would say that wouldn’t they.

Israel actually admits that its two strategically important air bases were hit by “9” ballistic missiles. It is reasonable to assume that the Israelis are not being completely truthful.

And although no independent reporters have been invited to inspect I have seen a photo of one of the craters caused by an Iranian ballistic missile, it is huge.

Obviously they just hit empty storage facilities because top military air bases always have lots of “empty storage facilities”, but how come the Iranians managed to do that if the attack was a complete failure as the Israelis, US, and UK, governments claim? Why can’t the Israeli defend their air bases which contain extremely expensive and vital hardware?

And the costs which Col Baud refers to are known – the cost of both the Iranian drones and the Israeli air defence missiles, it is widely accepted that the cost to Israel was huge and the cost to Iran relatively small.

Edit: Btw since you make the comparison does Col Baud do something similar to murdering people and chopping up their bodies? Is that why his claims should be dismissed?

Hamas should not be let off the hook with insinuations and suggestions that they are part of some Israeli plot.

It is not letting Hamas off the hook by pointing out that Israel helped to create and fund Hamas. Although the Israelis very obviously did not expect Hamas to pose a serious threat to them.

It is a fact that the United States helped to fund, arm, and trained, Osama bin Laden and his supporters. It doesn’t however let Osama bin Laden off the hook for 9/11

Western governments do stupid things which have devastating consequences. There is really no point trying to sweep it under the carpet and pretending that they don’t.

Western governments do stupid things which have devastating consequences. There is really no point trying to sweep it under the carpet and pretending that they don’t.

Well said

Now is a good time to invest in the arms trade… business is always good, but with recent developments, it should soon be even better!!

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation of how the October incursion by Hamas into Israel was executed with virtually no initial resistance?

I think the best answer is surprise and weight of numbers by the attackers and arrogance and carelessness by the Israelis.

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation of how the October incursion by Hamas into Israel was executed with virtually no initial resistance?

complacency and incompetence

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation of how the October incursion by Hamas into Israel was executed with virtually no initial resistance?

Complacency/hubris played a large part but Oct 7th was also the morning after the last day of Sukkot, a week long religious observance/holiday. Most soldiers were at home with their families.

Personally I don’t believe the Israeli and US claims that the Iranian attack was a complete failure, although obviously they would say that wouldn’t they.

It was a success in some ways, but a failure in others, which is a separate topic.

I think the point is that the escalation must stop because all that’s happening is that everyone (governments, media, public, etc.) is focused on the Iran-Israel exchange and possible escalation, with all of the consequences that brings

Before Iran’s attack the US and others were moving away from supporting Israel and the US had also abstained from, rather than vetoed, a UN vote for a ceasefire

We’re no longer focused on the dire situation for Palestinians and their lack of aid, while Israel’s allies once again coalesce to support Israel. Escalation is the worse thing, unless you are Benjamin Netanyahu, who is feeling a reduction in pressure

I hope to be proved wrong

There is some quite strong evidence that there were warnings that Hamas were about to plan something fairly big,  the lack of preparation by the Israelis is probably, as mentioned, a combination of complacency and incompetence and arrogance, and the not totally unreasonable lack of expectation that Hamas could execute such a devastating strike – they had never previously carried out any attack which was in anyway remotely comparable.

And it is also likely that Netanyahu thought any action by Hamas would not only be ineffectual but would also give him a good excuse to carry out military operations in Gaza, something which the IDF had done on half dozen occasions in the previous 20 years.

We’re no longer focused on the dire situation for Palestinians and their lack of aid, while Israel’s allies once again coalesce to support Israel. Escalation is the worse thing, unless you are Benjamin Netanyahu, who is feeling a reduction in pressure

That is the Socialist Workers position which it is trying to push on the pro Palestinian movement – that the Iranian attack was a win for Netanyahu.

I don’t agree, I think their assessment is coloured by their strongly anti Iranian stance. The Iranians proved  firstly that they are prepared to strike directly at Israel, secondly that if correctly planned their ballistic missiles can penetrate Israel’s air defences, thirdly that they can hit specific targets, and fourthly this is still possible even with several other very powerful countries giving the Israelis vital help and support.

The 170 cheap one-way  drones which overwhelmed Israeli air defences were nothing, Iran undoubtedly has thousands of them, and they certainly have plenty of ballistic missiles which are seen hitting their target one after the other.

For those reasons despite pledging to respond I very much doubt that Israel will strike directly at Iran again, and any strikes they carry out will be against Hezbollah, with which they are already engaging on a daily basis.

“Israel didn’t fund Hamas, but they did allow funds to reach Hamas, which is a subtle but important difference.”

It’s also a difference that’s explicitly detailed in the various sources cited above by the people claiming that “Israel funded Hamas”!

Dyna-ti: more like 70 years old. At the time, of course, the Soviet Union was spending double what the US was on the military as a proportion of GDP, it was occupying the other half of Europe, and was engaged in genocide and transportation of entire national populations within its borders: the Chechens, the Koreans, the Volga Germans, the Jews. (And was wildly anti-Semitic, to bring us full circle).

https://www.lambiek.net/artists/g/ganf_yuliy.htm

For those reasons despite pledging to respond I very much doubt that Israel will strike directly at Iran again, and any strikes they carry out will be against Hezbollah, with which they are already engaging on a daily basis.

Not forgetting the ongoing Israeli strategy of intercepting aid convoys sent in to alleviate the situation Israel’s policy has created in Gaza

Wait, what?

Research shows terms like 'massacre' and 'slaughter' are only ever used by the New York Times to describe the killing of Israelis, never for the killing of Palestinians.

Now the Intercept has found the NYT memo that specifically bars its journalists, and even interviewees, from…

— Jonathan Cook (@Jonathan_K_Cook) April 17, 2024

It is interesting that in the Intercept article that X/tweet points to, they do not publish, or otherwise let us see the Internal memo for ourselves.

The intercept article also doesn’t point out that the strategy is failing miserably :

“After narrowly backing Israel’s military action in Gaza in November, Americans now oppose the campaign by a solid margin. Fifty-five percent currently disapprove of Israel’s actions, while 36% approve.”

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

36% support for Israeli military action in Gaza is an astonishingly low figure from the United States public, especially when you consider the level of anti-Hamas and anti-Muslim rhetoric they are exposed to on a daily basis.

That Tweet by Jonathan Cook is also just factually wrong about what The Intercept article actually reports the NYT style guide is saying. It claims things that the Intercept article just doesn’t say.

Does anyone have a reasonable explanation of how the October incursion by Hamas into Israel was executed with virtually no initial resistance?

Complacency/hubris played a large part but Oct 7th was also the morning after the last day of Sukkot, a week long religious observance/holiday. Most soldiers were at home with their families.
Posted 5 hours ago

The Times of Israel reported that two Commando Divisions of troops were removed from the border days before the attack, and the Lookout towers manned by the female Troops were reporting that there was increased activity around the border fence for weeks leading up to the attack but were ignored.

Times Of Israel – Removal of Troops days before Oct 7th attack

Another Times of Israel report that I finally found in my reading list

For years Netanyahu propped up Hamas – Now its blown up in our face

@somafunk article about withdrawal of troops reads to me like journalists really fishing for a story. I think it’s trying to post-facto link routine (re)deployments with – if not outright dereliction, then something close to it when it looks like just co-incidence. That the top brass were briefed about possible incursions and that intelligence didn’t reach the operational level comes as zero surprise to me.

I will say though the levels of really interesting stuff (articles, you tubes, blogs and substacks) from all sorts of sources that folks on the thread have bought to the table have genuinely had an influence on my thinking about this conflict.

Thanks all.

it was more to highlight the fact that the Israeli government/IDF redeployed the units to back up and provide cover for the settlers in the West Bank, it was a rather unusual move to redeploy the border troops as there were a number of reports filed from the troops themselves that there was increased activity around the area and the unit commander was uneasy at the redeployment, I’ll have a hunt through my reading list and find the article

Latest UN report on the situation in Gaza has just been published, a long but detailed and sobering 48 page report on what is urgently needed.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs report on Gaza

And I see Netanyahu has told David Cameron that Israel will make its own decisions as how to strike iran

I have absolutely no issues with that, as long as Netanyahu does not expect the bigger boys to back him up in his schoolyard fight

…reads to me like journalists really fishing for a story

The same looks true of the ‘Hamas is Israel’s “creation”’ article.

The thrust of it seems to be that Israel didn’t crack down on Hamas’ founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and Islamists in general, in the late 70s.

But in the 70s Yassin was running a charity proving things like medical care and youth clubs and didn’t form Hamas until the late 80s. As the article acknowledges later, there was no reason to go after someone who at the time was ‘100% peaceful towards Israel.’

The article just doesn’t support the headline.

didn’t form Hamas until the late 80s

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was arrested in 1984 and sentenced to 13 years imprisonment for illegal possession of arms, the establishment of a military organization and calling for the annihilation of Israel.

As the article acknowledges later, there was no reason to go after someone who at the time was ‘100% peaceful towards Israel.’

So why on earth are you disputing that Israel helped the rise of Hamas then?

When the United States armed Osama bin Laden and the CIA established his training camps they had no reason to believe that he would eventually turn against them**

Does this prove that the United States did not help Osama bin Laden??

Western strategies (obviously I include Israel) of the last 40 years in the Middle East have generally backfired. Which suggests that huge blunders have been made!

** Actually if they had looked beyond short-term gain all the evidence was actually there. Greed and immediate gain is what drives the United States/West. Look also at the sub-prime crisis for an insight into that typical mindset and how ringing bells are ignored.

“The thrust of it seems to be that Israel didn’t crack down on Hamas’ founder, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and Islamists in general, in the late 70s”

No, I think that is too much of a stretch. It’s clear that Israel pursued a short time, divide and conquer approach where they were happy to see Hamas grow in influence and challenge Fatah in the earlier years.

It’s also clear that Israel tried an approach of “once they have the boring burdens of being in government, they’ll be more restrained” with Hamas, and allowed them to be funded by Qatar with the approval of Hamas leaders in Doha. Hamas spending years spending those funds on weapons and tunnels instead of social welfare, and the pursuit of an apocalyptic “bring it on” military strategy against Israel, seems to have come as a surprise to Israel, Hamas’s formal leadership and Qatar alike.

Meanwhile – weird to see Saudi complaining that Iran is precipitating all this because they want to frustrate Saudi-Israel normalisation. You wouldn’t have expected to hear that 15 years ago!