Gaza

We have to be very weary of Iran’s involvement, they are clearly a threat to the way of life of ordinary western citizens!

I far as I am aware no one has claimed that the Oct 7 attack was an act of genocide

You must have missed the bit where lots of people claimed that the October 7th attack was an act of genocide then: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_in_the_2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel

Out of interest, does anyone know if figures are available for the number of times Palestinians have made armed incursions into Israeli territory, vs the number of times Israelis have made armed incursions into Palestinian territory?

I don’t know the actual number, though I suppose a bit of googling could track that down, but I do know they called these incursions “Mowing the grass”

Where the IDF would enter Gaza with the aim to wipe out as many Palestinian youth as possible. I suspect/envisage when the kids reach a certain age they are more likely to attempt to attack or join a group and Israel carried out their operations to thin the herd so to speak.

You must have missed the bit where lots of people claimed that the October 7th attack was an act of genocide then

Sorry, yes, that was careless of me – plenty of people, such as our former Home Secretary Suella Braverman, consider all Palestinian resistance to be  “genocidal terror groups”, damnit even their tunnels are “terror tunnels”.

In about an hour’s time a demo in support of Palestine will be kicking off in Central London, undoubtedly some comment writers, such as Melanie Phillips, will be claiming that those on the demo are supporting genocide against Israel – Philips even describes Jewish supporters of Palestine as “Jews for genocide”.

What I had in mind when I made the comment was that I wasn’t aware of any ‘reasonable’ people claiming that armed resistance to Israel is an act of genocide. I should have been more specific.

The people and organisations you just dismissed as not “reasonable” include numerous international legal experts and the organisation Genocide Watch.

Which organisations do you believe I have dismissed? I have to admit that I have never heard of Genocide Watch, it seems to be run by about a dozen or so mostly undergraduates.

No one is claiming that Hamas did not commit any war crimes on Oct 7, even Hamas accepts that what they call “mistakes” were made.

The issue is whether armed resistance against the illegal occupation by a foreign power is genocide. Even before Oct 7 the United Nations considered Gaza to be under Israeli occupation as Israel controlled everything that went in and came out.

So it’s the usual descent into flippancy and ignoring the matter at hand then, in this case the argument being predicated around a definition of genocide only meaning genocide when it suits. To be expected I suppose.

Interesting that you should be bold enough to consider the Raoul Wallenberg foundation not “serious” on the matter of genocide. Same goes for George Stanton. Do you know anything about the people and organisations you so casually denigrate?

I have to admit that I have never heard of Genocide Watch, it seems to be run by about a dozen or so mostly undergraduates.

You have the name of the organisation, you have any number of search engines, and the most cursory of searches for “Genocide Watch” will tell you its Board of Directors consists of  thirty eight Professors, Doctors, United Nations advisors and legal experts. And yet your research on them leads you to think it’s run by about a dozen undergraduates. Does the same level of diligent enquiry inform the rest of what you write here?

Edit – and on that note I think I’ll give myself a 24hr timeout. Sometimes I don’t agree with what ernie says, sometimes it’s more that I don’t agree with how he says things, and whilst I’m more than happy to participate in robust discussions I feel I’m at risk of straying into “playing the man and not the ball” territory. See you tomorrow if this thread is still around.

Calm down folks please, I’d like this thread to continue.

organisations you so casually denigrate?

I can see this going in a direction which Mark specifically asked the thread not to go in.

Yes I fully accept that many people claim Palestinian resistance to  illegal Israeli occupation proves that they have genocidal intent, I don’t however believe that this is a reasonable claim.

To move the discussion on instead of going round what appears now to be circles perhaps you could offer your suggestions on how the Palestinians should deal with the internationally recognised illegal occupation of their lands?

Any suggestions?

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gaza

Please read my OP before adding to this thread. There are comments being made that are straying toward the line. If you feel you are getting wound up then do not reply until you have taken a break.

such as Melanie Phillips

Yeah, but we all know she’s a ****.

In a move that may, or may not, signal an attack by Iran on Israel, Islamic Revolution Guards Corps soldiers seized the MSC Aires in the Strait of Hormuz https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68806508

The ship is linked to Israeli billionaire Eyal Ofer and is a container ship built in 2020 and worth $$$

International naval assistance will pull warships away from supporting Israel against missile attack

Following on from a post I made this morning there’s been an alarming update that’s got potential to make things a whole lot worse and give Israel ‘justification’ to go into the West Bank where there’s already conflict between armed settlers & Palestinians – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68806205

The whole situation feels like it’s running out of control. People need to stop & try and find a way back!

An interesting article in Vogue of all places:

https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/jewish-bloc-for-ceasefire

I have now been on 10 national demos in Central London in support of Palestine in the last six months, I have seen a very clear and obvious Jewish presence on every single one of those demos. I think the comment made in the above article with regards to Jews being treated with a certain reverence on these demos is very true, and it totally exposes as a lie the “hate marches” label used by the likes of Suella Braverman.  Although people like her will also use the highly offensive “self-hating Jew” insult.

“give Israel ‘justification’ to go into the West Bank”

I don’t know if it really makes sense to talk about the IDF going into the West Bank – just look at the size and interconnectedness of areas A, B and C. Neither is the Fatah-controlled bits of the West Bank the same as Hamas-controlled Gaza.

I think it’s a mistake to think of “Israel” as a single thing that is plotting strategically (which is half their problem). I doubt the IDF wants a new front opened on the West Bank after the provocation of the settlers – it would stretch manpower further.

I don’t know if they’re particularly bothered about finding excuses for foreigners at this point, either.

The settlers are awful. If Israel won’t properly restrain them, thyr should all be individually sanctioned and excluded from global travel and financial networks. Some were sanctioned already: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sanctions-extremist-settlers-in-the-west-bank

give Israel ‘justification’ to go into the West Bank where there’s already conflict between armed settlers & Palestinians

I didn’t realise they needed any justification.

“PM Benjamin Netanyahu called Achimeir’s death a “heinous murder”.

See also Isrealis’ actions:

Iran just launched a wave of drones at Israel.

Won’t have much effect I would think, will take hours to arrive so plenty of time to prepare but it does Iran to claim it has hit back.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68810053

No real news reports yet but it looks like it’s just stepped up a notch with Iran

 likes of Suella Braverman.

Yeah, but she is also a ****.

Jordan has closed it’s air space to commercial traffic.

Iran just launched a wave of drones at Israel.

Won’t have much effect I would think, will take hours to arrive so plenty of time to prepare but it does Iran to claim it has hit back

Worth making popcorn or not? 🍿?

Looks like it’s Shahed drones, so likely to be taken out or off target.

No popcorn required.

This has been telegraphed between Iran and US – then from US to Israel.

I doubt it’s anything more than symbolic  – we’re truckin’ angry and are retaliating but only in a way which will cause very limited damage…as we don’t want the US turning on us aggressively.

Some noise for a few days – then a relative calming down.

Can the iron dome not just destroy these Shithead drones or whatever they’re called the second they arrive anyway? This seems like a massive non-story.

airvent
Free Member
Can the iron dome not just destroy these Shithead drones or whatever they’re called the second they arrive anyway? This seems like a massive non-story.

In this bizarre and messed up reality we now live in, you could almost say this is “good news” as it likely wont escalate into a larger regional conflict.

Bit messed up to look it that way but here we are.

beeb reporting iran has sent drones to attack israel. going up a gear.

DT78
Free Member
beeb reporting iran has sent drones to attack israel.

You have to be quicker than that to beat tonight’s resident doom monger.😉

Yes, I mean me by the way!

Probably a prearranged “acceptable” response to appease the the nutters on both sides.

And Israel’s measured proportionate response is likely to be..?

Netanyahu will do what he’s been told to do by Biden.

This is not 5D intergalactic chess.

Biden has banged on about this for a week; takes a (planned) weekend break then ‘rushes back to DC’; yeah right – choreographed.

I may be wrong if I wake in the morning to a post- apocalyptic landscape in the middle east but…I won’t.

This seems like a massive non-story.

What a difference a day makes. WW3 begins. But at least Bibi stays out of prison, so well worth it.

It was all pretty much staged as an appropriate response after Israel attacked their Syrian consulate, which resulted in fatalities, this response from Iran is pretty measured, it allows them to do their sabre rattling in Iran and show power, whilst also not responding erratically and bringing the US and others into it.

This is just the same as the US response after the Jordan attack on one of their bases, at least it shows diplomacy is still doing something, hopefully after this the US have a strong chat with Israel again.

hopefully after this the US have a strong chat with Israel again.

Id. like to believe that but these “strong chats” have not been very effective over the last 6 months. If ever.

Israel doesn’t just do whatever the US wants. This is a puerile attempt to jam Israel into a simplistic colonial conceptual model that isn’t supported by the facts or the history. It’s especially true now, when Biden hates Netanyahu and Netanyahu seems (Don Draper-like) totally indifferent to Biden. The suggestion of Biden simply instructing Netanyahu what to do is a real “tell me you don’t know etc etc” tell.

I suggest people read the long, detailed and somewhat boring article by Evan Osnos in the New Yorker on the Biden-Netanyahu relationship, and also consider the fact that they didn’t speak for a month while the war was happening.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/03/11/joe-biden-profile

https://www.reuters.com/world/netanyahu-says-he-has-not-spoken-biden-since-over-top-remarks-2024-02-11/

at least it shows diplomacy is still doing something

I guess we’ll see now whether Netanyahu listens to the US and wider international pressure or if he’s hellbent on plunging the world into a new war in the middle east. Iran has given him an out, lets hope he takes it, although I don’t have a lot of hope.

Surely last night’s attack will just make Netanyahu feel he’s been correct all along. His entrenched position  is now reinforced by these events.

It’s analogous to the problem with narcissists –  if you agree it emboldens them but if you disagree you will feel their wrath. Either way you can’t win

Sadly with Netanyahu you can’t just ignore him

What are people’s thoughts about the UK armed forces (specifically RAF typhoons) getting involved in defending Israel against the drones that Iran launched?

My concern is that this puts the UK firmly in the Israel camp and given their indiscriminate attacks in Gaza this very much concerns me. I can see that reducing the damage caused by the drone strike will hopefully avoid things escalating but, in my opinion, UK involvement should focus on providing support to the innocents caught up in this rather than getting involved in military action.

What are people’s thoughts about the UK armed forces (specifically RAF typhoons) getting involved in defending Israel against the drones that Iran launched?

There was a good post a few pages back (can’t remember who) about why Israel’s allies (the post was about the US specifically) still have to show a strong front re. Iran and back that up militarily otherwise if Iran calls their bluff and they don’t respond, that’s just asking for all out war in the region.

Also, the UK etc defending Israel against another nation’s attack does not equate to agreeing with Israel’s actions in Gaza. “Stop killing citizens or we’ll hang you out to dry in a massive war” is not really a good way out of this…

Despite which, as mentioned above, this looks very much like a way of Iran saving face by “retaliating” and if it’s left at this, the whole Iran thing should now cool down a bit. Except I see Netanyahu seems to be going on about retaliating against this attack… please let that just be bluff & swagger… like we needed more of that 🙄

I guess we’ll see now whether Netanyahu listens to the US and wider international pressure or if he’s hellbent on plunging the world into a new war in the middle east. Iran has given him an out, lets hope he takes it, although I don’t have a lot of hope.