I am about to make a purchase.  Contenders are

Canyon Spectral

Cotic FlareMAX

Bird AM9  or 145

What is the difference in the linkages – and what does it mean in the real world ( Drop link is really single pivot, right?)

Or where can I go on the internet to find out the real world advantages / dis-advantages?

Thanks

Summing up by linkage is unfortunately a bit too much of a simplification in the end, there are characteristics but in reality it’s what the bike builder does with it that counts

Given the Cotic and Bird demo availability

https://www.cotic.co.uk/demo/

Demo A Bird

I’d go throw a leg over them first.

They’ve all got similar anti-squat so similar pedalling efficiency, Spectral has least anti-rise so will be less stable but more active under braking, Aeris has least progression so will have less pop but swallow bumps better but run out of travel soonest.

Although the Cotic is a linkage driven single pivot and the other two four bar designs, because the Bird uses a counter-rotating upper link the virtual pivot point is much closer to the chain ring and moves much less than on the Canyon, so the Cotic and Bird are actually closest in behaviour.

They’re all pretty similar designs in intent and end result and the shock/fork choices/tune and geometry will make far more difference than the linkage.

Linkage type is only one part of the kinematics really, so you can’t look at it in isolation; two Horst link bikes might have totally different leverage curves, running different tunes of shock – rendering any direct comparison irrelevant. Even changing between the standard and LT linkage on the Aeris 145 changes the leverage curve enough to make it feel very different apparently.

Tl:Dr – go test ride them!

a the most basic level they all have their pros can cons but like idiotdogbrain has said above two of the same type can have significantly different characteristics depending on leverage curve and shock tune.  You really need to ride them.

My response earlier was based on the linkage analysis graphs of these bikes, or closely related ones.

Thanks – great info …

I gave ridden the Spectral and the FlareMax.

My only concern about the Spectral was cracking chain stays and the high front end .  The high from end is good on general as I have a bad neck and shoulders.  But I can see climbing up hills could become challenging.

The FlareMax was great … but and L rather than and XL, and saves money as I have a donor bike.

Whyte T-130 – completely underwhelmed  … dunno why , but seem short and heavy … even though only 15 kgs…

Would love to try a Bird but sorting out the time is difficult (plus availability of XL frames).  And I am not sure I find their looks the most appealing …

I went from an Orange Five to a FlareMax. I’ve always tended to prefer the feel of single pivot bikes for some reason. I agree in principle that any system can be tuned to give the feel that the designer wants, but in practice the single pivot bikes have always felt a bit more fun and engaging to ride to me.

I was sceptical about droplink, especially as Cy’s original justification for it seemed to be based on making it perform well in the granny ring. It’s just a single pivot with some extra linkages to control the rate and that seemed like a lot of fuss to do simething that you could possibly do by tuning the shock. However, in practice I’ve found that the FlareMax climbs a lot better than the Five while also feeling more lively. No idea how much this has to do with the linkage design, but it certainly works ok.

It’s impossible to tune a shock to replicate a significant change in leverage ratio through the travel. A decreasing leverage ratio (as in progressive bikes) increases both the spring and damping stiffness as you go through the travel so the way they store, dissipate and release energy is very different to a linear bike running a small volume progressive air spring.

The original DropLink blurb talks about it being designed for granny ring usage when climbing – if you compare the main pivot position on later DropLink designs you’ll see it’s moved higher up the seat tube – the first Rocket had the pivot close to the the granny ring, now the bikes have the pivot by the middle ring.

The theoretical advantages of four bar bikes vs linkage driven single pivots is the potential for reduced brake squat (anti rise) and pedal kickback, but most riders like the extra stability of a decent amount of brake squat and a lot of four bar bikes still have a lot of kickback which is where short link bikes (like DW link, Mondraker, Banshee etc) have the advantage.

If you like graphs it’s not too bad to get your head around. It’s all about the specific implementation, not the generic type of suspension, despite the rubbish the magazines write.

The good thing nowadays is most frame designers are aiming for a achieving similar goals – go back five years and there was a huge difference in the quality of the designs. Most stuff now is linear or progressive and designed for decent pedalling in the middle ring – some brands just got there a lot sooner than others.

Just to add the Aeris 145 and 145 LT do feel different. Since I added the LT link to my 145 I’d say it feels like it corners better / has more progression to the shock – although I’m running more pressure to get the same sag to start with. It definitely pops off stuff better and the front is a little easier to lift. So even small tweaks to basically the same system can make a difference.

Test rides are what will bring out the differences and find what you like best between the varying brands. Geometry probably has more effect on how bikes rides for you though.

I think the spectral has the most conservative geometry with both the Cotic and the Birds being more long / low / slack.

Everything is a compromise with this stuff, despite the marketing and snake oil.

My next full suspension will be a single pivot with suitable shock tune.

It will be better than a linkage in some ways, but worse in others no doubt.

What’s certain though, is that changing the bearings will cost £8, and take 15 minutes.

Although the Cotic is a linkage driven single pivot and the other two four bar designs, because the Bird uses a counter-rotating upper link the virtual pivot point is much closer to the chain ring and moves much less than on the Canyon, so the Cotic and Bird are actually closest in behaviour.

I thought the simple way to <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>explain linkages was to draw a line though each and the intersection was the “virtual pivot”. So on a DW or FSR it tends to move back and down. On a VPP, Bird or Nicolai it tends to go down and forward.</span>

End of the day though as long as it works it still plays second fiddle to geometry. That’s why Oranges always seem consistently fast, its simple but it still works and for the most part they’ve had sensible geometry over the years.

I quite like Oranges, Giants and Specializes, they all feel different but with the right geometry they’re all rideable. I never rode a Santa Cruz I liked (either the suspension or geometry for that matter).

Buy the one you like the colour of best!  That one will be the best at everything……..

(more seriously, in 2018, there are few “bad” bikes and the differences in any given segment are really, really small now (ie, sure a 200mm DH bike rides very differently to a 100mm XC bike, but compare a 160mm Bird to a 160mm caynon and really, they are so similar that after the first ride you’ll adapt to either……  I’d rate frame and fork quality higher than anything else, because those are the bits you can’t cheaply replace, all the drivetrain can be easily and (relatively) cheaply upgraded as it wears out)

. I never rode a Santa Cruz I liked (either the suspension or geometry for that matter).

Shhhhhh don’t let Mikewsmith see this 😝

I was impressed by the Canyon Package – esp what you got in kit for the price …

And I liked the high front …

That said, if buy the FlareMax – it will probably have as good a build , if not better from the donor Solaris ( Hope/Stans, Pikes, hope brakes,) but it will be 1x 11.

I used to have an Orange Patriot – and hated the pedal action & squat… hence the question.

I am guessing rear shocks are somewhat better these days …

. I never rode a Santa Cruz I liked (either the suspension or geometry for that matter).

Shhhhhh don’t let Mikewsmith see this

Honestly it’s a step up from I’ve never ridden one but I don’t like it…

so, if it were you , would you go spectral or FlareMax?

The cost looks like being basically the same – but the Canyon will be brand new …

The FlareMax will be on 3 year old wheels , a recent drive train and hope brakes … but with Pike RCT….