Full fat eMTB vs diet versions – real world experience?

Some ebike claim 85nm but that’s only a peak it hits not sustainable . I’ve ridden a few and tje giant is closest I’ve felt to an acoustic bike in manoeuvre ability.

Ah, right. No idea where/what measures the Nm, but no complaints about my Moterra (non SL), so, er .. moving on. All I’d say about Giant is… warranty.

When people mention range anxiety, I really do wonder how far you want to ride? Or do you want to just blitz everything in turbo?

I own (it’s for sale as it’s too big for me) a kenevo SL and I’ve done 25 miles and 3000ft of climbing, I used just over 50% battery (no range extender) in 2hrs 40.

I now own a levo SL 1.2, and the range isn’t as good as the older 1.1, but it still does me fine.

If you want to only own a single bike the lower weight bikes make sense, they ride/handle/jump closer to an normal bike. They can (god forbid) be easily loaded onto uplift trailers and they aren’t hard to load into vehicles.

I think when it comes to ebikes, you just pick a motor/battery/ brand and then preach to everyone that’s the best option 😂

“Maintain full power”

the 85Nm is the torque Jedi, that is not peak power. Motors have a max torque. Motors also have max peak power outputs, in W, which they can or can’t maintain. That depends on lots of things, like battery, motor, heat, % charge remaining. Generally the whole subject is super confused and companies are mixing Nm and W and what is full power anyway? Take the SX, it’s full power limited torque… how does that work (answer, you need to pedal really fast!) Motera is the lightest full power? What about my Rise LT, it has 85Nm and weighs almost a kg less. If you take the average peak power over battery charge cycle which has the higher W? I don’t know the answer but I’d guess they aren’t very different.

Which is more important, max torque or peak power? I guess it depends on what your average cadence is? At what cadence does W become more important than Nm?

It’s a really interesting subject and everything, IMHO, is really confused now. I think some manufacturers are doing that deliberately because they must know that they are being misleading or just telling part of the story.

Power and torque are related, which makes the whole deal even more complicated.

Gold top, green top or red top, pick one and be a dick about it.

the 85Nm is the torque Jedi, that is not peak power. Motors have a max torque. Motors also have max peak power outputs, in W, which they can or can’t maintain. That depends on lots of things, like battery, motor, heat, % charge remaining. Generally the whole subject is super confused and companies are mixing Nm and W and what is full power anyway? Take the SX, it’s full power limited torque… how does that work (answer, you need to pedal really fast!) Motera is the lightest full power? What about my Rise LT, it has 85Nm and weighs almost a kg less. If you take the average peak power over battery charge cycle which has the higher W? I don’t know the answer but I’d guess they aren’t very different.

it does seem deliberately vague.

Power and torque are related, which makes the whole deal even more complicated

especially when these figures are at the crank and there is a second drivetrain between that and the rear wheel.

If something is “full power but low torque” then there must be a cadence that will allow it to develop that full power. Is that an acheivable one? And does it need any more than the bare minimum input from the rider? i.e. if you spun your legs at 40W at 90rpm (which is barely touching the pedals) would it output the full 500W max/250W continuous? But if there was a trail obstacle, you coasted to negotiate it and slowed slightly, you would need to pedal yourself back up to 90rpm to get the benefit for full power again?

To be honest, that sounds like a lot of fun to me. I love a hard sprint and power move; having some help for/speeding up the zone 3 continuous effort in between would help this overweight and undertrained casual trail rider get more of them in before I head back home exhausted.

But… this would seem to be the exact opposite of what the older/illness recovery demographic will want – removing the zone 4 and 5 efforts?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

But… this would seem to be the exact opposite of what the older/illness recovery demographic will want – removing the zone 4 and 5 efforts?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

No.

Example – on the FB Levo/Kenevo pages there are constant posts regarding drivetrain wear, basically folk use Turbo and consequently the highest gears with low cadence and destroy chains & the smaller cogs of cassette.

I’ve a KSL, suits me fine and when I ride with full-fats I just have to use turbo sometimes – still covers enough miles/feet to wear even the fittest out,

If something is “full power but low torque” then there must be a cadence that will allow it to develop that full power. Is that an acheivable one? And does it need any more than the bare minimum input from the rider? i.e. if you spun your legs at 40W at 90rpm (which is barely touching the pedals) would it output the full 500W max/250W continuous?

That’s how your ‘delivery rider’s special’ ebikes are set up, and pretty much how Lime bikes feel to ride.  You can put a load of effort in but it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference.

The Orbea Rise you absolutely need to be in the 80-100 range to get full power/torque out of it.  The Specialized and Bosch motored full fats I’ve ridden give much more power at much lower cadences.

However, some of that is down to settings – if you turn the ‘assist character’ setting up in the Shimano e-tube app it will give you more power at lower cadences/torque input.  (it would be nice if there was a clearer explanation of what the settings did – perhaps with graphs)

You can customize each power assist level (Eco, Boost & Trail), resulting in 10 levels of assist character in total. Torque assist is applied according to pedal pressure – when the setting is moved to Eco, battery consumption is saved by the unit offering less assist. If you move the setting to powerful, you will find that acceleration is sharper as assist is provided even with low pedal pressure.

The timing of assist can also be adjusted – if you set it to mild, assistance will be smooth and balanced, whereas if you set it toward quick, it will be provided as soon as the crank is rotated.

The Orbea Rise you absolutely need to be in the 80-100 range to get full power/torque out of it.  The Specialized and Bosch motored full fats I’ve ridden give much more power at much lower cadences.

For sure that is the case with the older Rise. The new one is designed around a lower cadence. I think around 40-60 because in testing Orbea found that on technical trails it was a more natural motor response because riders were pedalling slower. Personally it suits me much more.

The reason you can get more power at lower cadence is a function of max torque and max power. If you know max power and max torque you can calculate the cadence where that max power can be developed. Power is Torque x Cadence, you just need to apply a factor to convert Cadence to rpm. Then the other thing is the assist mode, which specifies how hard you need to pedal to get the max assistance. I always think how few people understand the difference between Torque and BHP in a car… so it’s not surprising that e-bikes are the same.

I don’t know if that is explained well! There are a lot of things which are non-intuitive I think.

If something is “full power but low torque” then there must be a cadence that will allow it to develop that full power. Is that an acheivable one? And does it need any more than the bare minimum input from the rider? i.e. if you spun your legs at 40W at 90rpm (which is barely touching the pedals) would it output the full 500W max/250W continuous? But if there was a trail obstacle, you coasted to negotiate it and slowed slightly, you would need to pedal yourself back up to 90rpm to get the benefit for full power again?

Here for example, Bosch SX. 60Nm, 600W max. So to get that max power you need to be pedalling at around 100rpm. Realistically I know I’m never going to pedal that fast, so I won’t get the max power. It doesn’t make the motor bad though, just that for me the motor will react nicely as I pedal but the max power I will see is realistically 350-400W. I haven’t used one but I bet it feels great because… Bosch!

For sure that is the case with the older Rise. The new one is designed around a lower cadence. I think around 40-60 because in testing Orbea found that on technical trails it was a more natural motor response because riders were pedalling slower. Personally it suits me much more.

so this is where the Orbea RS ‘tune’ becomes a bit opaque – the RS firmware clearly limits both max power and max torque (but torque is limited by the power modes – you only get the max torque in Boost on profile 2 anyway).

What I’ve never been clear on is whether the rest is just the pre-sets in the app it’s delivered with (which is definitely what some people claim on line)  – so that you could set up any Shimano motored bike to ride like a rise – or whether other ‘non-user’ settings are different.

The ‘character’ of an e bike is a combination of the torque/power and how it delivers it:

• cadence
• rider power/torque input
• how quickly the support starts and increases
• over-run when rider input stops (Shimano motor has minimal. Specialized has a lot and it’s user configurable)

The shimano app now looks like this, but the Y axis isn’t labelled (torque? cadence?).

All the modes have assist start set to quick on delivery and I’ve never seen any point in slowing it.

so this is where the Orbea RS ‘tune’ becomes a bit opaque – the RS firmware clearly limits both max power and max torque (but torque is limited by the power modes – you only get the max torque in Boost on profile 2 anyway).

Not really, I don’t think. This is how all motors work, with assist modes which change the max outputs. The RS tune, as I understand, isn’t just a setting on the app, it changes the motor response curves which us punters don’t have access to. The torque is not limited, its the full torque of 85Nm, only in top mode, unless you set it otherwise (as with any motor). The power is slightly limited, aimed at offering more range and a more natural pedalling feel. Interestingly you don’t feel that limit.

Anyway, Rise is a bike pretty close to my heart, I don’t want to derail the thread. I was aiming to talk a bit more generally about the full fat – lightweight idea and what it actually means.

I don’t know if this is really helpful, since I’ve only had it for 2 weeks. I now have a Mondraker Neat.  18.5 kg apparently. Descending, I had barely tell the difference between that and my 160mm trail bike (160mm Kingdom Hex).

the point I thought I’d mention is that the TQ motor apparently ‘only’ supplies 50KW. But I just can’t imagine needing that turbo mode in real life. I only use it for playing purposes. It gives a comical amount of assistance. I can’t imagine ever needing more than that turbo mode, and to be honest, if I was range conscious, I’m not sure I would ever switch out of eco mode.

I would consider whether you plan to go on rides with others who are on full fat e bikes ,in which case you will be under powered. If riding on your own or with fitter people who are astride non assisted bikes then you will be fine. I have a Trek Rail which pretty much only gets used if everyone on the ride is on ebikes otherwise I feel like nobody really gets a great ride as people are either hanging around or blowing a gasket trying to keep up. Also if everyone is on an ebikes you have the option to do rides that would be no fun without assistance

 I can’t imagine ever needing more than that turbo mode,

Have you tried a full fat ebike? Try one, the power is addictive, but I still prefer my TQ motord trek fuel exe overall, but if they did one with the power, torque and range of a full fat bike but at the weight Of my fuel exe I’d be all over it.

TQ motor apparently ‘only’ supplies 50KW

It’s 50nm(of torque) and 300w of power for the tq motor

I’ve ridden a Levo and Kenevo SL a few times, and own a current Levo SL.

There’s no right answer to this. If you are going to the Alps, of course a full power bike will be a better choice. If you are a ‘MOAR LAPS! MOAR POWERRRR!’ type rider, then again a full power bike will be better.

That said I’ve done 2000m of climbing and 50Km on a Kenvevo Sl and the battery (just….) lasted. I did ride unassisted for the first part of the ride on the mellow climb. I have a range extender for my Levo SL but in 7 months haven’t used it. The climbs around Squamish aren’t huge, but they are not small either. Rides are generally between 1-3hrs without stopping for significant lengths of time.

My Levo SL weighs under 44lb with Formula coil fork up front, EXT E-storia coil shock in the back, rear tyre insert etc etc. I have no idea how E-bikes can end up so heavy. Some of the ones at work must be 65lb 😀

To start with it’ll be used to help build back fitness after a bout of long covid, so probably max 2-3h per ride this year which makes the diet version a no brainer.

Oxymoron.

Something with the Fazua 60 (Heckler SL or the cheaper version: Focus Jam2 SL) with removable battery you can take a 2nd battery. Very impressed with the range on these motors (even with just the one battery).