Fork small bump sensitivity (Pike)

They also recommend I take out all the tokens (I’m 11 stone)

I’m 11 1/2,  I don’t have any tokens in mine either. pressure at 70

I have a similar problem with my Z2s even after sizing the bushings. However, I have the rebound and compression open all the way, so I think I will change the damper oil from 5wt to 2.5, and wind the adjusters in a bit. Due to the design of the fork the low speed compression is unaffected by the shim stack so it’s down to the oil viscosity. Turning the compression knob affects the speed at which the shim stack comes into play.  Also being a budget fork it has less good wiper seals, but aftermarket ones are the lower friction type so that should help.

I’ll definitely be trying removing the tokens then.

But if you measured the 60psi sag on the same slope it would be far too much.

Indeed, good point.

Another thing to note when you were testing, did you increase rebound damping as you increased pressure as that much psi difference will need different rebound settings

No. I figured that there wouldn’t be ill-effects of comfort from rebound being too fast.

I had what sounds like the same issue on my Pike Ultimates (2021/2) at 150mm travel, weighing ~75kg with kit.

Unfortunately I can’t help as for the price of servicing/upgrading/tuning them I ended up buying some very discounted Fox 36’s which were instantly fantastic and sold the Pikes to a friend who’s super happy with them (but 20+kg heavier).

They were stiff/chattery on rocky trails, great on berms, roots/drops and woodland trails but then never achieved full travel on bigger (for me) features. So although that suited my local riding, it really caused me issues on Alps/Wales trips etc which was right where I needed the confidence of the fork working for me.

A PSA in another thread reminded me of how I sorted my Pike issues- Wiggle has MRP Ribbon Coils for £360. Really a pretty basic fork, but done right- I was happier with the setup and performance after maybe 2 testrides of knobtwiddling than I ever got with the Pikes. YMMV of course.

My pike select+ felt great with no stiction. Annoyingly after a service with new rct3 damper and a 10mm shorter airshaft yesterday they how have stiction and a noise at the start of the travel 😞. I did the bushing drop test with both stanchions while apart and both slipped in individually even with the seal spring ring in place. Bit concerned about riding like they are so going to drop the lowers and redo the lubrication (making sure the bushings are pre-lubed).

Noise is coming from the air spring side (identifed by ear against the lowers). I think it’s a squelch but very hard to tell. Debonair B1 air spring, wonder if the transfer port is blocked.

other option is a @trutune
they really do work!

im waiting for a fox 34 short version so I can do my Z2s

A new air spring will have more stiction than an old one.

A drop of oil in the -ve and +ve chambers helps.

It was new to me rather than new new. It’s a B seal head so tempted to get a C1 upgrade kit (which also has a new quad ring seal). That would rule out old seals.

I put 1ml in the neg chamber (though I used TF lowers lube as buying maxima plush heavy for 1ml seems excessive!). Pretty sure I added the 3ml into the positive chamber as well.

I let all the air out earlier and with 0psi the fork moves smoothly. Think that would suggest it is lubricate OK. At around 50psi it also moves fine. There seemed to be a pressure drop when I undid the pump and cycled the fork to charge the neg chamber. At 90psi similar stiction still there, again had a slight pressure drop after cycling the fork which I think is the neg chamber equalising.

Another thing that I think caused stiction in mine, was servicing mine using some old thick Stendec grease.
I bought some Slick Honey, cleaned the stendec stuff out and regreased them and they’ve been a lot better.

Ta, I’m using RSP slick kick grease currently but getting towards the end of the tube. Could be worth sourcing slick honey to try next time.

RSP slick kick is decent enough – don’t ever find stiction with that. You mentioned a new rct3 damper at the same time – maybe it’s that? 

As long as the air spring is in ok condition / is fitted without too much grease and a little bit of lower leg lube in the air spring per rockshox guidelines it should all be good.

Damper is brand new so I hope its not that! At the moment it is wide open, also the stiction goes when there is no air which suggests to me at least that the dampers in not the cause. I do wonder if I was a little too liberal with the grease :D.

There seemed to be a pressure drop when I undid the pump and cycled the fork to charge the neg chamber.

Are you allowing the negative chamber to equalise as you pressurise the fork? Pump it up a bit, squish it a few times. Pump it yo some more, squish it a few times etc. Keep doing that u til you got your target pressure.

If you just whack 90psi in and then remove the pump, you won’t have equalised the negative chamber so the fork will feel firm until it’s started to move. The would probably explain the squishing sound too, it’s possibly small amounts of air moving into the negative chamber as you compress the fork

Watch this video till the end. He seems to have the same issue with his Pike

Have used a set of forks on that terrain that you thought were good?

What’s the rear suspension setup like? Is something happening there that is pushing you forward onto your hands?

Running comfy grips?

From your picture, it looks like the kind of bump size your tyres should be dealing with.

Interesting video, others have said much the same in other threads that the older air-spring was much suppler and better small bump sensitivity but it suffered from sagging under the bikes weight. Someone had suggested using the older air-spring and accept that it will sag and offset it with a longer travel shaft. 

Have used a set of forks on that terrain that you thought were good?

No. I’ve tried 3 other modern bikes and forks on red trails but only for short demos. On this particular terrain my only other experience is a cheap coil-sprung 26er not going anywhere nearly as fast.

What’s the rear suspension setup like? Is something happening there that is pushing you forward onto your hands?

It’s a 140F/130R bike. Not sure what you have in mind, but I’ve learnt to ride with my head and weight over the front with modern long slack bikes.

Running comfy grips?

Pretty normal ones, DMR DeathGrips. On my rigid bike I found different grips help with discomfort associated with weight and same riding position for a long period, but not bumps and vibration. I think what I have here is more than grips would help with.

From your picture, it looks like the kind of bump size your tyres should be dealing with.

The thought did occur to me that I might be riding on the Rimpact insert, so not having much of the suspension effect of the air in the tyre. The tyres are 2.4″ EXO. From thumbing it with air removed, it probably fits something like this:

OK, so you’re after fork performance you’re not even sure exists? Maybe you’re after something unattainable?

I definitely experience more bump comfort with different grips, using/not using gloves.

With the rear suspension, I was thinking more along the lines of not enough sag and/or rebound too fast pushing your weight onto your hands.

You say you’re riding weight forward, are you going too far with it?

Bars too low?

It can be easy to blame the forks, always worth scratching around and testing other reasons.

Fork rebound too slow?

Possibly, I can’t know. It’s not just the pictured surface. But I see many videos of people riding rougher stuff, doing multi-day uplift trips etc., they can’t be putting up with this level of performance.

I’ll check the rear too. I’ve pressurised it for the support and bottom out resistance I want, but perhaps I should try more sag but with some combination of volume spacers and compression damping. The rebound is in the middle of the range but I never notice the adjustment range doing much.

I don’t think I’m too far forward, skills course I did the instructor was always saying I should be further forward.

Bars are right, done that experiment.

I’ve tried a bit with rebound but could do more.

Tried quite a few things today. Moors and trail centre ride, with a couple of repeat loops after making changes.

I’ve settled on 70psi (was 60), rebound -10 (was -7), 1 token (was 2). It’s noticeably better on downhills and under braking. Previously while it wasn’t sagged to the beginning of the progression, I think it soon got there due to combination of slope and braking weight transfer. I’ll try them like this for a little while but they’ll be going for a service soon as it’s about due and I’m still not really satisfied. Thanks everyone for your input.

0 tokens, 85psi, -9 rebound. This pressure and rebound is recommended by Trailhead for a 75kg kitted rider, I nearly weigh that without kit. It’s harsh even on the fire road, and bouncing on the bike it feels a lot harder than the rear. I’m happy with the rear in terms of landings, comfort, and dynamic ride height, so it’s not up for adjustment today.

0 tokens, 80psi, -10 rebound. It’s absorbing jumps better, but I can feel the bike tipping forward as it blows through the travel. Used all but 5mm travel on some moderate jumps and drops. Clearly a token is needed.

1 token, 80psi, -10 rebound. Repeated the previous. It’s still absorbing big hits well, and the pitching issue is much reduced. 15mm unused travel, about ok for that section. Onto the next trail, general trail including some big (for me) jumps and drops. Can feel it landing tail heavy, 2cm unused fork travel but shock near bottomed out. Still to imbalanced.

1 token, 75psi, -10 rebound. Repeated the last trail. Still a bit tail heavy, and now 1cm unused fork travel and the shock still nearly bottomed. This trail has about the biggest landings I ever do, so I expect to use nearly all the travel here or sometimes bottom out once.

1 token, 70psi, -10 rebound. Repeated the last trail once again. Feels better, but I’m getting tired so it felt a slower run. It feels ok, less tail heavy again. The balance seems mostly remedied looking at the unused travel too, 7mm on the fork and 5mm on the shock. Of course I’m not hugely consistent in landing level, but it seems ok. Onto the next trail, feels improved from my original setup especially on braking bumps. Onto the next trail, again noticeably improved on a long rock garden. Next trail has the biggest drop, and I always land it differently so won’t read much into the travel used each end, but it felt ok.