Fork small bump sensitivity (Pike)

I’ve tried a lot of things and tolerated this fork for a long time, and never got it to where I feel it should be. It’s a 2021 Pike Ultimate B4 140mm, lowers last done 30 hours ago. I just can’t get it comfortable for small bumps at speed on bridleways and tracks, yet it’s perfectly fine on the sort of rough you get on red/black trails, and ok (but not great) on rougher rockier natural stuff.

60psi and two tokens in it at the moment, compression damping fully open, rebound 7 from full slow. For an XCish rocky tracks ride (think Yorkshire Dales) I’ll sometimes drop to 55psi which makes it a little bit better at the expense of diving under braking. I’ve done many days focused on setting it up, on different trails, both by feeling and by ShockWiz. I’ve tried higher pressures up in steps of 5psi in case it was running too low in its travel and out of the optimal place for small bump sensitivity (mentioned in this thread), but it only got worse. Also tried more and less rebound damping in case it was packing down, no improvement either.

It’s had a DHR2 EXO and Der Baron Projekt on, all 2.4″, feels the same with both. It’s a 29er. Pressure I’ve settled on with an original Rimpact is 20psi for my 75kg, it was 23psi before fitting that.

On the rocky track pictured below, going maybe 20mph, I actually had to stop because my vision was becoming blurred by the vibration reaching my eyeballs. Weird feeling, never experienced that before. For contrast, a rougher track like this is fine, like it’s rough enough to get the fork moving whereas the below one isn’t.

They’re about due their first full service, so I’m wondering if I get a custom tune done while at it for £50 extra. Not sure what they’d change as part of that though, as they just ask for type of riding and weight. The alternative is not to do that and put the money towards a better fork when a decent deal crops up. Which could be a fancy air one, or a coil if need be. Perhaps I can convince myself it’s an investment in not getting arthritis.

So this Pike, is this as good as it gets, or anything else to try before moving on?

Before a tune I’d look at getting the bushings resized

Did that on my old bike and the difference was amazing, coupled with a service its cheaper than new forks…

IMO they’re just not that great, or rather, they’re not my idea of great. Probably Rockshox have done a really good job of delivering the fork they think is best for the market, it’s just that it’s not what I want. But then all my forks are coil now which is probably indicative. (I weigh 10 stone, ymmv)

They definitely have too much compression damping for me, even fully rolled off still feels fairly choked and it seems like you might be in the same place. A custom tune could well help with that. I always felt like the damper and air spring were basically fighting each other, I’d adjust one side and maybe get a positive effect but then end up having to adjust the other side to match and ending up with negative effects there, I never really had a feeling of the two working in harmony.

As a diy meddler it is imo definitely worth just fannying about with spacers- don’t just go by the logic, experiment with more, less, none, and see what that does for you- again this goes back to the “two sides fighting” thing, you might find that the perfect spring setting isn’t actually what gives you the best overall fork feel, because of the interaction with the damper. I can’t remember what I ended up with but it was something fairly illogical and a bit against recommendations.

It’s also possible that they could do with the bushings resizing, which also makes a fork less responsive. I’d not be surprised if they can be made better, the question is just if you’ll be happy with them and that I don’t think anyone can tell you.

Some say the B1 air spring gave more sensitivity than the C1 that I assume is in your fork. But looking at that picture the problem you have sounds more significant than a small air spring tweak.

Those 2021 Pikes are a great fork and certainly will provide you with a decent ride once they’re running sweet. I’d suggest getting a professional inspection/opinion from someone like myself or another service centre.
The many and varied reasons why it’s not feeling right (for you) and no one can really pinpoint the problem on here without actually having the fork in hand.
I never charge to inspect or diagnose so feel free to contact me at the workshop on Monday.
Race Ready Suspension 01539 720609 (Robin)

I could never get my 29er Pike feeling right. Exactly as you describe, just too harsh on the small stuff. Replaced with a Fox 36

I managed to break mine before I could try other measures, but I had a similar experience with the same fork.

I considered replacing it with a Lyrik, DVO Diamond or Formula Selva, but ended with a Mezzer because the price on CRC last year was too good to pass up. I found it simultaneously better for small bump and more supportive than the Pike.

Sorry I can’t be more help!

The Pike is a great fork but from experience they never feel great from the factory, and small bump compliance is one of the areas this is obvious.

A full service from a good suspension workshop (can’t recommend Sprung enough), with fresh seals, the correct levels of oil and problem solved.

MartynS beat me to it.  Have a closer look at the bushings.

Drop the lowers and remove the air spring and damper from the uppers.  Remove the garter springs from the seals and the foam rings.  Basically, you want just the lowers and the CSU but you can leave the seals in as removing them does damage them.

Insert one leg into the lowers and see if it drops under its own weight.  Try the same on the other side. If it passes both of those tests, try both legs at once with your wheel in the drop outs.  The CSU should drop into the lowers under their own weight.  If they don’t, then you have a problem with bushing shape, size or alignment.

Before a tune I’d look at getting the bushings resized

Interesting. I see a few servicing shops include this (if necessary) as part of either servicing or tuning.

Probably Rockshox have done a really good job of delivering the fork they think is best for the market, it’s just that it’s not what I want.

It’s a great trail centre fork, based on my experience.

They definitely have too much compression damping for me, even fully rolled off still feels fairly choked and it seems like you might be in the same place. A custom tune could well help with that.

Yes, unlikely to be optimal given I’m on full open on the adjustment range.

As a diy meddler it is imo definitely worth just fannying about with spacers- don’t just go by the logic

Bike came with 2, after a while I went up to 3 so I could drop the pressure. Later I came back down to 2 and kept the same pressure. I probably just got better at landing jumps and drops level. So I know 3 will leave travel unused, 1 will have me bottoming out, more air is less comfortable, less air is too little support.

I’d not be surprised if they can be made better, the question is just if you’ll be happy with them and that I don’t think anyone can tell you.

Yes, I don’t really have anything relevant to compare against. This is the only modern fork I’ve I’ve ridden extensively or as hard. Spent a day on a Fox 34 a couple of years back, didn’t do any adjustments from how it was, all I remember is it was fine.

Some say the B1 air spring gave more sensitivity than the C1 that I assume is in your fork. But looking at that picture the problem you have sounds more significant than a small air spring tweak.

C1 came after my fork and I’ve also read that it’s not as sensitive. My fork is a B4.

That particular track seemed to be the wrong type of rough for some reason. Decades hard packed stone. I’ve ridden things way rougher and it’s been fine. Maybe combination of resonance and speed making it worse.

I could never get my 29er Pike feeling right. Exactly as you describe, just too harsh on the small stuff.

I managed to break mine before I could try other measures, but I had a similar experience with the same fork.

Did either of you try getting it full serviced, custom tuned, and/or bushings done? I’ve read of a few experiences like ours so if spending money on it is unlikely to be fruitful I’d rather not waste it.

Have a closer look at the bushings.

I’ll try this unless I decide to send them straight for a service/tune.

Not all service centres will adjust the bushing, If you think it needs doing, check before you send them off.

Did either of you try getting it full serviced, custom tuned, and/or bushings done?

No, I just did a couple of 50hr services, which always helped a bit. I did talk to TF Tuned about a custom tune and maybe fitting a B1 air spring for the bigger -ve, but then I bent the CSU (a non-riding accident!). 

I could ever get my Revelation feeling right either.

I went through every iteration of air spring which all sucked in different ways.

The best thing I did (other than replacing the RC damper) was get a custom air spring from Everflow. Much bigger negative volume meant I could drop the air pressure 10% without introducing excessive diving. This made it much more sensitive and less progressive overall so small bumps and big bumps were much more pleasant. 

Ultimately, the best thing I did was but a Mezzer but I realise that’s not a helpful comment. 

More negative volume is the answer youre looking for I think. 

The Everflow airshaft is called a Zerodue. He also does airblisron kits that you can fit to your own airshaft and if you want, will make you a custom length airshaft if you really want to have 145mm travel or whatever.

There’s also the Luftkappe and the Sekus, both give you more negative volume but the Luftkappe achieves this at the expense of some positive volume. If you’re happy with 2 volume spacers though, you might be ok as you can remove them to gain the volume that the Luftkappe steals. The Sekus doesn’t affect the positive volume. 

I struggled with my Fox 36 on a ‘22 Stumpjumper Evo until I got it serviced. It was night and day different.

Loads of Fox Forks built around that time were assembled really badly. I wonder if Rockshox were too?

Do pikes not have adjustable negative air chambers anymore? Increasing the negative air chamber pressure should increase small bump compliance considerably although I admit my last experience of one was ten years ago now!

Have you had any other forks on the bike? Some bikes just ride harsh because of the frame stiffness, wheels etc.

Not all service centres will adjust the bushing, If you think it needs doing, check before you send them off.

I was expecting to send to one that explicitly says they do. I guess it’s worth doing the test anyway so I can draw their attention to it.

More negative volume is the answer youre looking for I think.

Yes amongst many other fancy features some rival forks offer. I don’t have the appetite get custom bits installed in the fork.

Do pikes not have adjustable negative air chambers anymore?

No, none of the RockShox or Fox forks do. All the fancy features are on smaller brands.

on my older Pike a Luftkappe really made a huge difference and gave me by the balance between support & small bump

Luftkappe in a yari & lyrik didn’t make such a difference 

I have the same fork and I love it. I’m a touch heavier than you at 80kg. I run 84 psi and no tokens. HSC 7 clicks ccw, and LSC 3 clicks ccw.  I’m no expert on suspension (I go to Sprung if I’m struggling) but I think your fork is way too soft and it’s pretty much sagged against the ramp up caused by the reduced volume that the tokens give which means you’re always pushing against a firmer part of the spring.  I’ve never really felt the need for anything more than one token in a fork, largely due to experiencing the same issues you describe. 

I’ve got a 2021 Pike Ultimate running at 140mm travel in a hardtail. I have run it on a  a full suss bike for a few rides too (when my Lyrik was out of action). Always been pretty happy with it – the setup to the Lyrik was possibly a bit different but it did a decent job on full suss as well. 

I’m about 76-78kgs ish – not sure of all my setting but run the rebound on the faster size, hsc is full open and lsc is 4 clicks from full open. Maybe there are 2 tokens in there. No issues with small bump or bottoming out.

Like people have said above I’d get your bushings checked to make sure there isn’t a fundamental issue with the fork. If that’s fine then I’d look at a custom tune I think – or you could look at a smashpot. Run a softish coil spring and it comes with hbo to avoid hard bottom outs.

Interesting comments from those who like it.

For reference, I’m about 82kg and ran it with (from memory) 7-9 clicks rebound, 3-4 LSC and 0-1 HSC. No tokens. 150mm travel.

I experimented with psi, starting with 83 ish as per Trailhead, but never found a happy place between dive and suppleness.

The lowers seemed to go on OK after a service but I didn’t do a drop test so can’t comment on bushings.

If I find a cheap CSU, I’ll rebuild them with maybe a custom tune/B1/Secus.

Edit: a Secus appeals because of my experience with the triple-chamber Mezzer Pro.

I have had the exact same problem with the Pikes Ultimates.  I was sold the idea that what I needed was a new damper. The damping was only marginally improved but didn’t fix the problem. Put in a TruTune and burnished the bushings again for a marginal change but didn’t solve the issue. For me it was spiking and the ‘touch down’ feel from the texture of certain terrain.  It moved incredibly easy off the top but for me it wasn’t the how ‘small bump sensitive’ it was –  it is how the air in fork the subsequently behaves. It seems RS forks of a certain age are designed to ride in a particular way and there is nothing you can do about it. Either try a different brand of fork or forget air forks? Also found running alloy wheels and a more damped carcass tyres help too.

No, none of the RockShox or Fox forks do. All the fancy features are on smaller brands.

That’s a shame, I’d say it was the most useful feature on a suspension fork that I’d ever had, could really dial it in for small bump sensitivity and removing initial stiction.

I wonder why brands dropped it.

Another +1 for the Luftkappe – made a noticeable difference to my Pikes.

+1 for another person running these Pike Ultimates (albeit at 130mm) very happily. I do get the impression Rockshox (and probably other brands) don’t all leave the factory quite the same though.

FWIW mine are on my hardtail, I’m 14 stone in riding clobber, running 97psi, 8 rebound, 0-1 HSC, 1-2 LSC and 1 or 2 tokens. Oh and they’re 42mm offset… just a little thing, but I found offset and general cockpit setup does interplay with fork settings bit. Obviously not to the degree of problems described in the original post.

If a lowers service with the proper oils doesn’t sort it, it’s likely to be bushings or misalignment somewhere

Unlikely to be damper unless it’s broken. 

I have the same fork and I love it. I’m a touch heavier than you at 80kg. I run 84 psi and no tokens. HSC 7 clicks ccw, and LSC 3 clicks ccw. I’m no expert on suspension (I go to Sprung if I’m struggling) but I think your fork is way too soft and it’s pretty much sagged against the ramp up caused by the reduced volume that the tokens give which means you’re always pushing against a firmer part of the spring. I’ve never really felt the need for anything more than one token in a fork, largely due to experiencing the same issues you describe.

I was aware of this possibility and recently did an experiment to investigate. For my 75kg, the trailhead recommended pressure is 83psi with the default one token, so I think 78psi by rule of thumb for two tokens.

60psi two runs to familiarise, on the above pictured track.
65psi – worse.
70psi – unchanged.
80psi – unchanged.
90psi – unchanged. Measured sag with bike on the slope and it’s 30%.
100psi – worse.

So what I think I know is:
1. I can’t run less pressure because there’s not enough support for anything other than XC cruising.
2. I can’t run more pressure because it makes it less sensitive.
3. If I remove a token I’ll bottom out, unless I add more pressure thus causing issue 2.

I now no longer have the Pikes, basically gave up on them. 

I have been running a Lyric which is stiffer and feels better as stock. Now has burnished bushings (my LBS burnishes as part of the service) TruTune and a TankV4 negative kit for shiggles as I was curious. No Tokens, no HSC, a little LSC for extra support on certain trails, set the sag and its pretty much as close to coil-like feel as any air fork I have tried. I would def look at different brands in future tho and save all the faff!

Onzadog
Free Member

MartynS beat me to it. Have a closer look at the bushings.

Drop the lowers and remove the air spring and damper from the uppers. Remove the garter springs from the seals and the foam rings. Basically, you want just the lowers and the CSU but you can leave the seals in as removing them does damage them.

Insert one leg into the lowers and see if it drops under its own weight. Try the same on the other side. If it passes both of those tests, try both legs at once with your wheel in the drop outs. The CSU should drop into the lowers under their own weight. If they don’t, then you have a problem with bushing shape, size or alignment.

Good post.

When I read the opening post, this is the first thing that came to my mind also. The talk of vibration blurring vision especially!

I seem to be more sensitive to this than most people, I long for the days you could get a headshok/lefty with roller bearings. You could have it set up really stiff and yet there would be no rattle through the bars.

Have you tried less rebound? I’m about the same weight as you and run mine at about 70psi, but I’ve got about half the rebound clicks.

I was expecting to send to one that explicitly says they do. 

Sounds like a good plan.

Slick and Slide does FWIW, I asked him when he posted a video about the issue.

FWIW my 2021 Pike Select+ is great, with no such issues.

I seem to be more sensitive to this than most people, I long for the days you could get a headshok/lefty with roller bearings. You could have it set up really stiff and yet there would be no rattle through the bars.

Oh heck yes – mrs_OAB still bemoans not having a Headshok any more :(

I personally have never got on well with Rockshox dampers. They just feel like you are describing.

I prefer Fox dampers, back in the day Marzocchi and Manitou.

I got one of those pikes when they were being sold cheap a while back.  Thankfully mines just on an ebike conversion which gets used on fireroad to access decent walking terrain.  Thankfully, because it’s pretty gash in a similar way to th OP.

A new fork with an rrp of £500+ shoulnd’t need fettled out of the box, but it’s very common it seems.  Even a good air fork can’t compare with coil for small bump sensitivity while still being good on bigger hits.  My big bike has a Lyrik with a Vorsprung spring and it’s truly superb.  Hardtail has an MRP coil, also great.

Having similar issues here.

I’ve been running a 2016 Pike RCT3 650b since 2018, which once Luftkapped was pretty good. Sadly I killed the stanchions and you can’t buy new CSUs for that generation anymore.

So I picked up a s/hand ’21 Pike Ultimate that had just come back from having a new CSU fitted (so uncut steerer)

I’ve been playing round with it for a couple of months now and still am not happy.

They’re great (as in way better than the old ones) on smooth bikepark berm&jump trails – supportive and you can work them well over the rollers, but they just don’t move quickly enough over the rocks (which is what I actually like riding). There’s no flow to them. You hit something _ _ _ Then the fork moves.

I’m 64kg + kit on top, 140mm travel on a hardtail. 47psi, 2 tokens (blow through the travel otherwise), zero compression damping, rebound as fast as I can cope with. I can use full travel easily enough (not had a proper klunky bottom out).

I would say from reading through many threads on the subject of rockshox forks that that most people run the damping wide open regardless of their weight. This to me would suggest that for those who are light weight maybe up to 85kgs may need the oil in the damper swapping for something lighter. That way the damper would allow for  some adjustment to trail being ridden? Rockshox seems to offer a one solution fits all out of the box, which in reality doesn’t work.

I had a similar issue with my 2017 27.5 Pikes, they were so horrible on things like braking bumps and the kind of surfaces shown above that I would get fatigued very quickly, I put it down to (at that time) that my bike wasn’t really up to the trails I was riding in Morzine. I have since switched the damper oil for something lighter and did a lowers service at the same time. I couldn’t really tell if it was an improvement, it’s been fine on local trails. Anyway I’m in the throws of building up two completely different bikes, a hardtail for local stuff  & a slightly longer travel FS in 29er wheel flavour. No doubt I’ll be back to this thread looking similar solutions in the months to come.

PS – I came across this guy who modded a debonair air spring

I had similar experience with 2017 /  27.5″ Pike Charger damper  RL – OK on big bumps, but something like a cobbly land-rover track would shake your fillings out. I tried all manner of settings / tokens and also tried changing the shim stack to the light tune and going for lighter oil which actually helped quite a bit. What really sorted it out, however, was getting the air shaft changed to one from a Debonair fork with 2.5wt oil (on the advice of Phil at Indi Cycle Works).

So lots of varied experiences and mixed success in fixing it for various levels of investment.

I think I’ll do the bushings check before deciding whether to service (possibly with custom tune at the same time for cost effectiveness) or replace. The former with tune racks up to £190 with carriages, it’s a bargain compared to a new fork, but it’s also a lot of money if it doesn’t work out.

I had the same problem with a set of 140mm 2021 Ultimates, sent them to TF Tuned who put lighter oil in them and reduced the rebound damping. They also recommend I take out all the tokens (I’m 11 stone). Made a massive difference. 

If you are getting 30% sag at 90psi, it’s got to be around 50% at the 60psi you’re trying to run and no amount of bushing resizing will make that better!
If you have the know how I’d start by doing a lower service including the air spring out to clean anything out the negative side that shouldn’t be in there, then reassemble with both tokens out making sure to inflate them correctly with a digital pump to get you around 20-25% sag and restart the setup process again

They also recommend I take out all the tokens (I’m 11 stone). Made a massive difference.

Interesting. What pressure did you use before and after?

If you are getting 30% sag at 90psi, it’s got to be around 50% at the 60psi you’re trying to run and no amount of bushing resizing will make that better!

This was on a slope, steeper bit than the photo. As opposed to level ground where sag is usually measured. But I think we both had the same concern that it’s running in a ramped up zone of travel, when pointing downhill.

But if you measured the 60psi sag on the same slope it would be far too much. Most people think that reducing pressure will give a more supple ride, and it will to a point, but too far and you change the balance of the bike putting more weight through the hands which will make it feel rough so they then take out more pressure in a vicious circle. If you also don’t change the rear it just gets worse quicker.
Another thing to note when you were testing, did you increase rebound damping as you increased pressure as that much psi difference will need different rebound settings