Flat pedal technique. Once more, with feeling (and pics)

So I’ve been riding flats on and off for the last 5 or 6 years. In certain circumstances flats are brilliant (steep/twisty/jumps/drops), in others, I’m less fussed, but there’s one type of terrain I really really struggle on. Flat out, rocky/choppy, not too steep stuff. Think a typical Peaks descent – Roman Road down to the Snake or coming off Houndkirk towards Dore. Clipped in, you’d just sprint into it, relax and hang on and let the bike do what it likes underneath you.

Now on flats, my front (right) foot stays nicely planted. My back foot just gets walked forward on the pedal until I’m stood on my heel, or jolted off all together. Either way, not good, and realy difficult (impossible) to readjust at speed over rough ground.

Now the “recommended” technique seems to be heels down. Fine.

However you’ll notice my back leg is locked straight. No shock absorbtion.

Bend my knees (lower c-of-g and better suspension)

…and you’ll notice, that despite my ankle being flexed as far as it goes, the pedal itself is virtually flat. Easy to see why my foot walks off the pedal. The more I bend my knees the higher my back heel gets.
(this works fine on steep ground, as you’re further off the back of the bike which gives you the heel drop back)

The only way I’ve found that vaguely keeps my back foot on the pedal is this:-

…and then push my feet apart as hard as I can, so both feet are pushing into the pedals. It sort of works, other than it’s really bloody tiring and it means I’m really tense/stiff and unable to absorb bumps.

So go on then, tell me how to do it right…!

I watched the Steelcity race on Saturday (similar not steep, but quite bumpy track). So many of the riders on flats seemed to be hanging right off the back of the bike to try abd keep their heels down and it can’t have done anything for either their front wheel grip, or their ability to pedal. The guys who did seem to be fast on flats didn’t seem to be doing anything special – they were just “stuck on” (especially the hardtailers). But how?

get some Shimano AM41s, I found those teva’s very skitty.

I think the problem is, you are leaning against a wall.

Beyond that, dropping the heels certainly helps, digging in through the feet and lower legs and also five-tens are pretty grippy with decent pedals. Not sure what the Tevas are like.

I think although as you say your heel lifts when you bend your knees, I think in a real situation you need to get off the back a bit more to charge through rough stuff. Otherwise, any large item trying to stop you will bounce you forward or take you over the bars. weight is back and pushing through the feet and through the bottom bracket.

Saying all that, my feet still bounce off the pedals despite the five-tens and grippy flats, makes it more interesting.

CBA reading all that ^^ (is it full of loads of typical STW overthinking?)

but your seat’s too high, your bars too low and fork too long. seriously!

on a hardtail to keep your feet on over fast rough ground (that isn’t steep) you don’t really need to drop your heels, you simply need to position yourself lower and hold your feet in position with the rest of your body allowing you to do whatever you want with your feet.

HTH.

FWIW I never have a problem keeping my feet on the pedals with skate shoes and about 3 pedal pins. I purposely run un-grippy pedals as I like my feet in completely different positions for different things.

Oh.. and get rid of that stupid bent seatpost too

just rode the peaks on flats and didn’t have this problem. the first day i was bombing the rocks all relaxed like too (on a short travel FS bike, hardtail may be trickier..). doesn’t help sorry.
maybe not grippy enough shoes.. with AM41 and Kona WahWahs, my feet cannot slide, have to be picked up to move them.

dunno. but my mate who is rapid on a hardtail does it by not being on the ground very much.

i think you might be over analysing it….

getting your heels down us as equally important as getting loose. those knees and elbows of yours don’t have to stay in motionless throughout the descent, in fact it should be exactly the opposite to that as you absorb as much of the hits from lumps and bumps on the ground.

edit: ^^ goes for riding in clips also.

my feet are more forwards than that – axle in middle of foot. Move your brake levers up a bit so your weight is more back, body centre over bb

In the sort of terrain you describe, I’d have my feet further forward on the pedals (as cruzheckler says).

Your body position also looks pretty high and, for the terrain you’re talking about, a bit forward – although I suspect that the position you’re in in the photos isn’t very realistic.

more weight in the feet, less in the hands

more weight in the feet, less in the hands

Simple – try a dual ply rear run soft to create an inch or two of travel, plus Five Ten Impacts. Rest is down to you.

I’m no expert but your hips look way too high and too far forwards. I was one of the small proportion on hardtails on the Enduro1 race yesterday and although that’s not a rocky area some of the trails in the FoD are fairly bumpy. I can’t remember the last time I lost my footing on a descent and I have a messed up, restricted movement, right ankle with metalwork in it.

I think your analysing it well – thinking about it properly etc.

I would suggest your problems will go away if you were clipped in. You sound like you know what your doing, so give some thought as to why clipping in will be a disadvantage to you.

I dont think it will, more likely the problems you have will be cured. What would happen if you stayed clipped in that would be a disadvantage ?

Afterall, you can unclip in the blink of an eye and keeping your weight on the pedals gives better control – its hard to see why you would take a foot off.

Used to have the exact same happen to rear foot on same terrain when I got back into biking years ago. Does not happen at all now. I think the reason is that I am far more animated on the bike, more relaxed and work with the terrain. Get a video of yourself riding this type of stuff and you will probably find you are nowhere near the position you think you are in. I used to think I was in a good position and moving around – I simply wasn’t.

Must mention – I am still nothing special on a bike but this does not happen and I got between flats and clips a lot. You are decoupling from the pedals by not working with the terrain/bike.

from what I can see

feet need to be over the arch more. so you can almost bend your whole foot over the pedal.

GW does talk a load of crap!

try riding with your right foot at the rear. you seem to have more flexion in your right, this is quite common.
you may benfit from rolling your controls back slightly, go slow with this and see how you feel but putting levers slighty more horizontal will roll your wrists back.

it may feel strange at first to be leading with your weaker foot but it should enable you to keep weight low and back for faster more controlled descents.

So all the people saying “more weight on the pedals”. How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip? And anyway on a hardtail I want my weight further forward on my arms to work the fork, less on the back wheel so it skims over the rocks easier and doesn’t hang up on stuff and pinch flat.

I’ve nver got the “pedal under arch of foot” thing. a) it screams “WRONG” at me from a feel point of view (yes I know I can probably get used to it), but more importantly it robs me of any flexibility through my ankles. I lose maybe 2″ of travel, moving my foot forward 2″ on the pedal. Absolutely hate it – feels like I’ve lost all control of the bike. (FWIW I *do* have my feet further forward than I would if I was riding clips). How’s it supposed to work/help?

Trimix – I do ride clips, maybe 50% of the time.

Part of the reason for persevering with flats is that I still haven’t mastered them yet, the rest is nothing to do with *un*clipping, its everything to do with getting clipped back in again in a hurry on some steep slippy rooty mess when there’s a corner coming that’s the opposite way to the one you’ve just unclipped for!

Don’t know why your foot position should affect ankle flex?

I really do think part of your issue (in those photos at least) is that you’re standing too high. Get your backside down hovering around where your saddle is in the pics.

if you are hanging off the back, you don’t need front wheel grip.

not weight back – weight central over bb

When I went from Clips to flats, I was keeping my foot position the same until I forced a change

I would move your feet forward a bit like others have said. It feels “wrong” but it works. As well as dropping your heels its good to push with your feet (and hands)

I might get flamed for this but are your brakes set a bit low?. If you can rotate your wrists down a bit it might bring your body down . You seem to be standing quite tall.

I would guess if you try to “fix” this with clips with will be you and the bike decoupling from the ground instead of just you from the pedals. If you stay on and are happy then all good.

Suprised you don’t feel like your going over the bars all the time with so much motivation to weight the bars and unbalance the bike just because it is a hardtail.

So all the people saying “more weight on the pedals”. How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip? And anyway on a hardtail I want my weight further forward on my arms to work the fork, less on the back wheel so it skims over the rocks easier and doesn’t hang up on stuff and pinch flat.

This requires a cup of tea, a lengthy discussion followed by putting it into action with a watchful eye.

See where his weight bias is on anything rough (not the best video)-

Compare his body position to your photos.

stop leaning over the front “working” the fork expecting the rear to skip over everything and learn to skim the front wheel over rough ground with less weight over the front (kinda like manualling). ride the rear wheel more and use the foot and a half of rear suspension in your legs properly.

slam the fork and the saddle and you’ll find both of the above easier.

Stretching. Cyclists tend to have shortened hamstrings. Stretch after you ride,

irritating video here.

APF

GW actually summed it up supremely.

And for balance weight forward 🙂

Having your arch over the axle allows you to wrap your foot more around the pedal.

That was the exact advice I got from Ed Oxley and it works for me.

another thing..

Riding flat pedals requires a different approach to reading the terrain ahead to riding SPDs.

switching back and forth probably isn’t doing you any favours.

Thank you Dean 😀
(can’t watch your Video tho)

More weight on the pedals = balance your body so that your weight is directly over them. Drop your hips down and back, and let your body bend forwards so your shoulders are low and forwards. If you weight is entirely through your bottom bracket then your front wheel should have enough grip (~40/60 dist F/R). If you understeer then weight the bars when you corner and then get back to light hands, heavy feet once the apex is past. Note, not an expert, just a fairly smooth flats-only rider, who’s spent way too much time reading/thinking about this stuff.

Don’t know why your foot position should affect ankle flex?

It doesn’t affect flex, but it does affect travel

if you are hanging off the back, you don’t need front wheel grip

So how do you pick anything approaching a line if the front wheel isn’t weighted?

I’d actually say I’m pretty centred in the first 2 photos. Middle of torso over BB. Obviously if the ground was steeper I’d be further back.

Edit – OK, just watched the video – where was the rough ground? Stuff like that is easy peasy. Nothing to bother me there in the slightest.
It’s this kind of stuff, flat out I struggle with.

I’ll try weighting the back wheel more, but I must say I’m not convinced of the idea. I absolutely see it working on a full sus, but not on a hardtail. I just see hard impacts and pinch flats that way.

So how should technique change if you’re riding spd’s?

JonEdwards, that’s why you have a suspension fork. Surprisingly, it is actually just as useful for extending out from the sag point to track terrain as it is recoiling to absorb it. You shouldn’t need to push your fork to get grip, thats what the spring does.

If the bike is bouncing around underneath you, allow your legs to follow the terrain, by compressing and extending them… quite straight forward isn’t it??

Perhaps you need to go on a skills course 😉

Just bought some flats, so I’m reading this with interest.

And spds/flats should make zero difference.