Where do you stand on the rights of trans people?

As a starter, that they should not be discriminated against?

This is where your over-simplistic argument falls down. You cannot champion one group’s rights at the expense of another’s. Well, you can, but it’s a shitty thing to do.

That’s exactly what I see your argument as doing. Women have the right to same sex spaces. Trans women are male. The arguments being made above claiming that trans women have the right to compete as women is an argument that denies women any rights as women at all.

Women have the right to same sex spaces. Trans women are male.

So you’ll be perfectly happy with trans men in those spaces, then?

I don’t believe there’s been the confusion you posit.

Like I said, first peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve.

However, I think you are fighting tooth and nail to stay at that peak rather than begin to descend to the level many of us find ourselves in where we can’t give you any of the simple answers you keep asking for because you think our inability to give simple answers means we know less than you.

We know more than you. We know and understand how little we understand.

Like I said, you are fighting tooth and nail to stay on your peak because I think you know that as soon as you begin to look deeper into the question you’ll find yourself with just as many questions as the rest of us and very few answers.

Enjoy your view from the peak of ignorance.

It’s one thing to acknowledge that unfairness exists in sport (unfairness that individuals and organisations work hard to minimise) and quite another to make a sport intrinsically unfair by building that unfairness into its rules.

To cite the existence of the former as justification for doing the latter is astonishing.

Like I said, first peak of the Dunning-Kruger curve.

However, I think you are fighting tooth and nail to stay at that peak rather than begin to descend to the level many of us find ourselves in where we can’t give you any of the simple answers you keep asking for because you think our inability to give simple answers means we know less than you.

We know more than you. We know and understand how little we understand.

Like I said, you are fighting tooth and nail to stay on your peak because I think you know that as soon as you begin to look deeper into the question you’ll find yourself with just as many questions as the rest of us and very few answers.

Enjoy your view from the peak of ignorance.

Descending to insult, no matter how cleverly you try to word it, isn’t doing your cause any good.

It’s one thing to acknowledge that unfairness exists in sport (unfairness that individuals and organisations work hard to minimise) and quite another to make a sport intrinsically unfair by building that unfairness into its rules.

You are making the assumption that unfairness is being built into the rules.

That has to be proved rather than just assuming it must be there.

Descending to insult, no matter how cleverly you try to word it, isn’t doing your cause any good.

I’m not being insulting. I’m stating facts.

Markie is continually making statements that have been argued to be wrong on this thread. If he disagrees with those arguments he can address them rather than just blindly repeating the same mantra.

If he insists on refusing to engage in the conversation and just keep repeating the same overly simplistic statements then I think it’s fair to point out he’s only so sure of himself because of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

So you’ll be perfectly happy with trans men in those spaces, then?

If the choice is black and white in that way, then yes. Equally, trans specific spaces may meet some needs better. And again, perhaps best discussed in another thread.

You are making the assumption that unfairness is being built into the rules.

That has to be proved rather than just assuming it must be there.

Which brings us back to the point in question. FINA looked at that question exactly and made a good call.

Markie is continually making statements that have been argued to be wrong on this thread. If he disagrees with those arguments he can address them rather than just blindly repeating the same mantra.

Your argument seems to be that:

A woman is anyone who claims to be a women (or trans woman).

Therefore any women’s space should be open to anyone who claims to be a woman.

Therefore sporting events which are women only should be open to trans women.

And that this is fair in that it means males are having their right to be women respected.

I disagree with your first point, and therefore with the conclusions which follow.

I do not believe that separating humanity by sex is as complicated as you make it out to be.

As for your Dunning Kruger fixation,🙄.

Which brings us back to the point in question. FINA looked at that question exactly and made a good call.

I disagree.

They made a blanket rule when there was no need for a blanket rule. This blanket rule is going to further marginalise an already marginalised group.

I’ve yet to see anyone tell me what is wrong with looking at each case individually and determining whether the individual has an unfair advantage when compared to the average athlete.

It could be that if you looked at Lia Thomas’ case you would find that she has the largest hands and feet and the greatest lung capacity compared to her competitors and these advantages could only have come from going through male puberty.

If that was the case then excluding her from women’s competition would seem fair enough.

When they were debating whether to allow Oscar Pistorius to compete against able-bodied athletes they spent a long time performing tests to determine whether his blades gave him an unfair advantage, eventually concluding they gave him a 25% advantage.

Why could the same not be done for Transgender athletes?

I do not believe that separating humanity by sex is as complicated as you make it out to be.

Which tells me you haven’t looked into the subject in any great depth.

Do me a favour. go to the intersex wikipedia page. Start by reading it. Then read the references and go where the rabbit hole takes you.

That’s basically what I did and it challenged all my pre-conceived notions about sex and gender.

The main thing it made me realise is I still know nothing about this subject. Make all the jokes you want about that 🙂

I’ve yet to see anyone tell me what is wrong with looking at each case individually and determining whether the individual has an unfair advantage when compared to the average athlete

Agree, the numbers are teeny. You could even set up a separate body within the governing body to just look at this, and they’d still be scraping around for work to do.

Do me a favour. go to the intersex wikipedia page. Start by reading it.

I think you made his comment before. I looked last time STW did this debate, and had all my preconceived notions comprehensively knocked back. It’s not at all as straightforward as folks like to think.

I’ve yet to see anyone tell me what is wrong with looking at each case individually and determining whether the individual has an unfair advantage when compared to the average athlete.

I think you hinted at an answer to your own question.

It would be difficult if not impossible to determine clear and fair criteria for each sport. The arguments would be intense.

Every affected athlete’s physique, results and performance changes would be scrutinised and questioned. Endlessly.

It would provide them with no stability at all, and the attention and uncertainty would be distressing, as your examples of Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, and Oscar Pistorius demonstrate.

It’s not at all as straightforward as folks like to think.

I disagree. For the purposes of classifying biological females from not biological females, it’s pretty simple and is the approach that FINA have taken.

Why could the same not be done for Transgender athletes?

Deciding on individuals on an ad hoc basis makes for a poor policy. How would you compare heart size and to what reference group, for example? FINA have taken a population-based approach using analysis of data from multiple disciplines and concluded that male puberty (and testosterone in general) confers an irreversible advantage in swimming. It also allows for decisions for those children and parents who are dealing with gender dysphoria and competitive sport.

When I raced against Elite and Cat 1 women in mixed E123 races, I really enjoyed it, of course they’d sometimes beat me, but we were just making up the numbers, because the E1 men were up the road soaking up the points and prizes. In TTs my marker was always the holder of the Women’s British national records. We were competitive and she’s 30 years my junior.

Do me a favour. go to the intersex wikipedia page. Start by reading it. Then read the references and go where the rabbit hole takes you.

That’s basically what I did and it challenged all my pre-conceived notions about sex and gender.

Not many categories in the social and natural world have perfectly sharp boundaries. This doesn’t mean they should be thrown in the bin or that science shouldn’t otherwise use them. Life vs death or living vs non-living things, for example. Is there a universal definition of the point of death in human beings? Probably not. Are you therefore happy to die? The social world has even more fuzzy and nebulous categories such as ‘poverty’, ‘conservatism’, ‘agency’, for example. Should they be abandoned as we fastidiously seek only those categories blessed with razor-sharp boundaries?

Note that this lust for perfect categorisation can easily be pressed into service to ban abortion. After all, for example, there is no universal definition for when a fetus becomes a baby. In the name of justice should we, therefore, ban abortion?

Anyway, the matter of edge-cases that don’t easily fit into biological sex categories is related but still different from the matter of gender identity and those individuals wishing to compete as women on that basis alone. Unless these transgender people are intersex too then the question of their biological advantage is an empirical one. We have a ton of data regarding athletes who are unambiguously one sex or the other.

Do me a favour. go to the intersex wikipedia page

Can you explain what intersex has to do with a decision that impacts trans athletes?

@ebygomm

It’s being used to push a dodgy argument that therefore sex isn’t real or doesn’t exist.

Can you explain what intersex has to do with a decision that impacts trans athletes?

I think it’s honestly quite disgraceful to cynically co-opt people’s medical conditions in this way.

Why are people obsessed with making a blanket rule to cover not just an entire sport but all sports at all levels for what are a vanishingly small number of cases?

I don’t think they are, are they? There have been a few high profile cases and the governing body has been asked to pass a judgement what it believes the rules should be for their sport.

It’s not ‘all levels’, either, the judgement is for elite competition only.

If you’re going to have a second (slower/weaker/lower/shorter/etc) category in sport based on physical characteristics (sex) then you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Is this person eligible for this category: Yes/No. It is binary. The governing body can’t just say they’ll review everything on a case-by-case basis. As it is, they’ve done some research, worked out where clearest performance division lies, and set the yardstick down. If you’re on this side of the line, you’re allowed to compete in the female category and if you’re on the other side, it’s men/open.

I’ve yet to see anyone tell me what is wrong with looking at each case individually and determining whether the individual has an unfair advantage when compared to the average athlete

Right, but by the same logic, perhaps I (a man) could compete in the women’s Freestyle 800m category if I can show that my VO2Max is insufficient to be competitive? It’s completely unworkable. But more importantly, it’s woolly and subject to arguments.

Just so as we’re clear,

So you’ll be perfectly happy with trans men in those spaces, then?

If the choice is black and white in that way, then yes.

You’d be perfectly happy with putting a trans man who had been receiving hormone treatment for years and had undergone gender reassignment surgery so had a penis and testicles, into a women’s prison?

I haven’t misunderstood you here have I, this is what you’re stating is your position?

If the choice is black and white in that way

This is literally your argument. Is it black and white, or is it not?

Descending to insult, no matter how cleverly you try to word it, isn’t doing your cause any good.

I saw no insult. What I did see was my own journey described perfectly. And why I am now very wary of simple answers to what are complicated questions. I once thought it far more simple, and that there was no “debate” to be had, from a position of relative ignorance.

Thank you Cougar, I was going to say exactly that.

Equally, what would happen to a person assigned male at birth who had undertaken full surgery and hormone treatment in the same situation? That person has breasts, a vagina, long hair and has been living and working as a woman for 30 years. And you’d send them to a male prison? Really?

You haven’t thought this through at all have you?

I think it’s honestly quite disgraceful to cynically co-opt people’s medical conditions in this way.

Think I’ll deal with this first. Being intersex is NOT a medical condition. SOMETIMES medical intervention is required but most of the times intersex people are able lead perfectly normal lives without any kind of treatment.

The idea that it was a medical condition led to years of non-consensual, unnecessary surgeries where the only goal was to ‘correct’ the outward appearance of the genitalia because the thinking was that fitting nicely into the binary idea of man and woman was essential to be able to live a normal life (can’t think where they got that idea).

The idea that it is a medical condition rather than just perfectly natural is an attitude that continues to lead to prejudice.

Can you explain what intersex has to do with a decision that impacts trans athletes?

Governing bodies are attempting to apply the same rules to both groups. Look at Caster Semenya.

While not the same thing, intersex and transgender people face many of the same issues and many of the same prejudices.

It’s being used to push a dodgy argument that therefore sex isn’t real or doesn’t exist.

Do you need some more straw or is that fella you’re arguing with big enough already?

Firstly, at no point have I said that biological sex characteristics don’t exist. What I have said that the continually repeated phrase, ‘There are only two biological sexes’ is wrong and harmful.

The vast majority of the population fall nicely into one of the two categories and anyone who doesn’t, up until very recently, has been pressured into keeping quiet about it.

Contrary to popular belief, I don’t think that most transgender people are ready to die on the hill of only referring to ‘Womb-havers’ on NHS pamphlets or whatever nonsense keeps Daily Mail headline writers busy.

I think most transgender or intersex people are quite happy that when we say women or female or men or male, depending on context, we know we’re referring to the majority who fit nicely into the conventional definition.

What I and many others object to is weaponising the term male and female in order to exclude men and women who could be classed as edge cases and forcing them to disappear into the shadows again.

I’m sure transmen, transwomen, intersex-men and intersex women would have no problems acknowledging they are different to the majority. However, that difference is not license to discriminate.

Right, but by the same logic, perhaps I (a man) could compete in the women’s Freestyle 800m category if I can show that my VO2Max is insufficient to be competitive?

If you rocked up to the start line in your speedos, I guess my first question would be, ‘Are you a woman?’

Depending on your answer we could go from there.

It’s completely unworkable. But more importantly, it’s woolly and subject to arguments.

Yeah, I’m not sure if I’m seeing much consensus with FINA’s big, ‘No entry’ sign.

It’s very clear but it achieves that by being over-simplistic.

The only objections to taking things case by case is that it’s going to lead to arguments and uncertainty for the athletes.

I doubt Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges are feeling much certainty right now.

Well, Lia Thomas is pretty certain she’s just been told to **** off.

what would happen to a person assigned male at birth

I see this phraseology being used quite a bit now. The same people use ‘lived experience’ quite a bit too.

I don’t imagine you’re aware of the origins but do you really think that being male is simply a matter of some medical professional arbitrarily sorting you into the category of male at birth? That’s the very Foucaultian implication.

That’s the very Foucaultian implication.

Care to elaborate or are you just dropping it in as a not so subtle way of connecting transgender people with pedophiles?

I mean, I’m sure you’ve got a a perfectly innocent explanation and it’s my lack of knowledge of Foucault that has led to my misunderstanding.

You would never try to link transgender people with pedophilia in such a clever way that it gives you plausible deniability, would you?

Since we’re now at that stage of the conversation, I’m done.

@BruceWee

I was not bringing paedophilia into this. I mentioned Foucault because he’s the social constructionist heavyweight that much Social Theory on this matter goes back to. The idea that medical practices and institutions create certain kinds of people/bodies was put forward in The History of Sexuality. Foucault called this regulation Biopower.

The phraseology ‘assigned gender’ reeks of this with the dumbest kind of post-modernism.

…and if you want to talk about Queer Theory too…? Probably going waaaayyy off topic though.

do you really think that being male is simply a matter of some medical professional arbitrarily sorting you into the category of male at birth?

Do you really think that it never is?

What I and many others object to is weaponising the term male and female in order to exclude men and women who could be classed as edge cases and forcing them to disappear into the shadows again.

Nail on the head.

It’s not that long ago we were having the same ignorant* arguments around homosexuality. “It’s Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve / sex is for procreation / it undermines the sanctity of marriage” and many, many more.

Just yesterday I stopped at pub on the way back from home an escape room, and they had a little Gay Pride display up on one wall. It wasn’t a ‘gay pub,’ it was a regular old high-street boozer where a couple of families were enjoying a pub lunch. No-one cared, it was just normal. Because, why should it matter to anyone else? We’ve still got a ways to go but we’ve come a fair way.

How much longer do we have to wait before we can just normalise this too rather than view transsexuality with distrust and fear because it’s new and different and ‘other’? History has taught us time and time and time and TIME again that the blokes we need to fear are in plain sight, absolutely none of them are putting on a frock in order to get a bit rapey in women’s toilets.

(* I mean ‘ignorant’ literally, not pejoratively here)

i_scoff_cake

The problem with your fedecruct argument is that you don’t understand the brimmislemist nuances to it.

On order to allocate the slembands to the correct prograker you need to ensure the frantly undenonprol haven’t been misaligned.

Until you grasp this frankly simple premise then I’m afraid you’re just showing your ignorance.

You’d be perfectly happy with putting a trans man who had been receiving hormone treatment for years and had undergone gender reassignment surgery so had a penis and testicles, into a women’s prison?

I haven’t misunderstood you here have I, this is what you’re stating is your position?

If the choice is black and white in that way
This is literally your argument. Is it black and white, or is it not?

The original point was this:

bathrooms are a minor concern compared with prisons and refuges.

So because of your concern around placing trans women who by your definitions ‘are really men’ into women’s prisons rather than men’s, can we conclude that equally you’d cheerfully place trans men who you claim ‘are really women’ into women’s prisons?

Because you can’t have it both ways.

Trans-women are male. I do not believe this is in dispute.

Cheerfully? Not a word I’d use for any point of this debate, but especially not as it relates to prisons.

In referring to black and white, I meant that if the choice being offered is either all trans persons go to prison in the prison of their sex or all trans persons go to prison in the prison of their chosen gender – then yes, I believe less harm would be done by jailing according to sex.

This is obviously not the situation.

I firmly believe no males should be in a womens prison.

That does not necessarily mean that it is appropriate either that trans women should be placed in mens prisons or that trans men should be placed in womens prisons. The state has a duty of care to ensure prisoners are safe.

Equally, what would happen to a person assigned male at birth who had undertaken full surgery and hormone treatment in the same situation? That person has breasts, a vagina, long hair and has been living and working as a woman for 30 years. And you’d send them to a male prison? Really?

Nope. But neither would I put them in a womens prison.

All the above is separate to the issue of trans women participating in womens sports.

Firstly, at no point have I said that biological sex characteristics don’t exist. What I have said that the continually repeated phrase, ‘There are only two biological sexes’ is wrong and harmful.

The vast majority of the population fall nicely into one of the two categories and anyone who doesn’t, up until very recently, has been pressured into keeping quiet about it.

The issue of intersex athletes is also separate (though also dealt with by FINA in their document).

Governing bodies are attempting to apply the same rules to both groups. Look at Caster Semenya.

At least in the case of FINA, no. They set out rules relating to transgender and intersex athletes separately.

Yeah, I’m not sure I’m seeing much consensus with FINA’s big, ‘No entry’ sign.

It’s very clear but it achieves that by being over-simplistic.

What I did see was my own journey described perfectly. And why I am now very wary of simple answers to what are complicated questions. I once thought it far more simple, and that there was no “debate” to be had, from a position of relative ignorance.

I think the complication arises only if you want to argue that males can be women (as opposed to trans women). Or to put it another way, that trans women are women. To make this argument requires (as above) making the category of ‘woman’ so wide as to be meaningless. Doing so erodes womens rights.

FINA is going the right way in it’s efforts to create an ‘open’ category for those who identify as neither male nor female, or who do not wish to compete in the sex based category they are eligible for.

Apart from tyre sizes, what else about mtb differs from road bike in its metricity?

I believe less harm would be done by jailing according to sex.

That does not necessarily mean that it is appropriate either that trans women should be placed in mens prisons or that trans men should be placed in womens prisons.

Why not? They’re respectively men and women by your own argument. You’ve asserted this several times including in this very same post, “Trans-women are male. I do not believe this is in dispute.”

In which case,

That does not necessarily mean that it is appropriate either that trans women should be placed in mens prisons or that trans men should be placed in womens prisons.

Why not? They’re indisputably male. So stick them in with the other males. What’s the problem?

Nope. But neither would I put them in a womens prison.

Why not? They’re indisputably female.

Where do you propose we put them instead then, Pontins?

I believe less harm would be done by jailing according to sex.

This is obviously not the situation.

I firmly believe no males should be in a womens prison.

Alright.

Alex is F2M trans. He was born female, has been chemically and surgically gender-reassigned and is now six foot tall, 200lbs, and has a cock like a baby’s arm. He’s just been sent been sent down for life for multiple counts of rape.

Do you firmly believe that as a female by birth “less harm would be done by jailing according to sex” and putting Alex in a female-only prison?

I typed a reply to your posts, Cougar, and then decided that while I’d gladly post it on a prison thread, this thread is not the place. The discussion adds nothing to the debate on trans athletes and FINA’s decision.

Glossed too often is the purpose of the women’s category in competitive sports. It’s a handicap category contrary to the idea (stated explicitly or more often implicitly) that it’s there to include those subjects excluded by the patriarchy, i.e., women are just people who are not granted the privileges of being male by structure.

The discussion adds nothing to the debate on trans athletes and FINA’s decision.

It’s wholly relevant insofar as we can’t begin to discuss potential issues around trans athletes if we cannot even reach a consensus on what “trans” means.

Again, lest you’ve forgotten, this is your argument in the first place, you were the one who brought up this train of thought, how strongly you felt about safe spaces. If it’s suddenly got too challenging for you then just say so and we can move on.

We could perhaps cross out “women’s prison” and write “women’s athletics” if it helps to stay on-topic (or you could start a new thread if it makes you happy). If you’re arguing that M2F trans people should be competing with the men because they’re indisputably male, then surely F2M trans people should be competing with the women because they’re indisputably female. No?

I reckon when our Alex gets out on good behaviour he’d make a great powerlifter. Remind me, do Olympic athletes have segregated male and female ‘safe space’ areas?

I thought we were okay on what trans means! I take it to be those whose gender identity differs from their sex. Trans women are male, trans men are female.

I am not clear on what you believe ‘woman’ to mean.

I define ‘woman’ as adult human female, separate from trans woman, adult human male with gender dysphoria.

Absolutely trans men can compete in women’s sport, subject to the same regulations on drugs, medication, etc as other athletes. Ditto trans women in the men’s category.

Regarding Alex (I had name as Geoff?), I think he’s likely to be such an age at release that competition does not feature in his future.

Supporting trans rights does not require accepting that trans women are women.

Supporting trans rights does not require accepting that trans women are women.

Doesn’t it? Isn’t the whole point that they demand to be recognised as women? It’s not just about the utility of access to certain spaces.