Expensive frame + cheap components versus cheap frame + expensive components

Definitely cheap frame and good components, as long as the frame has decent geometry.

One of my current bikes is an octane one prone. A cheap frame (only cost me £120 new) that I then built up with pikes, trp brakes, hope on stans, xo/gx drivetrain. It's done everything, fort William, downhill, all dayers and it just keeps going.

The cheap components that you list  (z2's and deore) are more than capable though!

There's an XL solarismax for sale in the classifieds

Looks like the SC has a better fork and group set too (not that it answers your question).

I don’t ride a HT but I’d have thought the frame choice is very important, beyond geometry if the ride is harsh or ‘dead’ the bike could feel like a bit of a dog.

Maybe worth pricing up a Bird Zero 29, they have xl available.

I'd focus on the frame (standards, geometry, warranty... do you actually like it?) and then the fork, and then the wheels. Most of the rest will need replacing at some point anyway.
Whatever you do get, I'd possibly factor in buying tyres appropriate to where you ride... tyres make a massive difference.

Ignore weight, especially at XL, focus more on ride & ability.

I'd highly recommend an On One Scandal if you're after VFM and something that works really well - and I had years on a blinged-out 456Ti (Lynskey) as a comparison.

Key component on a HT is the fork IMO, a top-line Pike transformed the Scandal compared to the RS 35 it came with.

A cheap version of a good frame, or from a clued up manufacturer = yes. (Up to date geometry and standards, warranty (maybe!)).

A cheap frame made out of scaffolding pipes with v-brake bosses and a 27.2 seat tube, just so you can get an XT rear mech = no.

Most of the rest will need replacing at some point anyway.

I've done this before, checked out the best frame and fork i can get with the cheapest build. Both road and MTB.

Scott used to be good for this, Deore kit with SLX rear mech and £99 wheels on a decent carbon frame with some half way decent Fox forks. Unfortunately, that's all gone out the window now with the changes in the industry...

By the time i'd had it a year, it was unrecognisable. Except for frame and forks (and seatpin for some reason, takes me years to replace those).

Good frame definitely when it comes to a hardtail
a quality frame should ride better, and maybe even finished better and therefore more durable. A better spec frame may have better cable routing, like fully enclosed internal etc which makes things a breeze.
You could buy a top spec bike with top end fox or rockshox, and have more dials to play with than you need, a drivetrain that in a blind test you wouldn't tell the difference.
buy the bike around the frame you want, and over time you'll work out anything you want to replace

where’s the best place to spend money on a hardtail?
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I'd say fork would be my top priority along with tyres, but I'd generally rather start with a nice frame with good geometry than have a cheapo one with good components.

If I were you, given the current fire sales of pretty much everything, I'd be looking for a frame only option and adding bits to suit, though I get that it cam be easier and more economic to go for a full bike.

Bear in mind that budget stuff like Deore drivetrain and brakes are surprisingly good and you can upgrade them as they wear out.

I'd focus on the frame. Deore is perfectly serviceable. It will wear out, just replace it with posher Shimano parts as and when they wear out. Z2 is a good fork, son has it on his hardtail and I'd say it's somewhere between a Rockshox Revelation and a Pike, so probably a low level Pike.

Only thing I'd look at upgrading initially are probably the wheels, although I have no idea what the standard wheels are like, but I'd guess they're heavy.

Once over a certain threshold I think there’s very little between frames. Geometry is way more important. Forks and wheels are the components I’d concentrate on. The rest will wear out over time anyway. Can’t tell the difference between fancy and cheap droppers.

Build your own would be my advice as you can choose the balance between chassis and components.

For me the chassis = frame, fork and dropper as they work together for various reasons.

The rest doesn't necessarily need to be expensive but building your own you can customise things to your exact needs and shape.

Geometry comes first, and then the fork. Nothing else matters half as much to me.

I'd look at frame & fork - drive train components wear out.
Wheels would be the next thing - but again these can be replaced fairly reasonably.
Tyres are generally a personal choice too based on what/where you ride and what you like.

No point in having Eagle AXS if the frame if the equivalent of a Sports Direct Muddy Fox....

I'd say get the bike/frame you want first off, then pick the build you can afford as a result.

But.......
Really you need a damn good reason to look any further than the Scandal mentioned above. Or there's a very similar Whyte or Pace IIRC (Can't recall which).

My hardtail is a Scandal, and my FS is an "entry level" Vitus (which is still a carbon frame, Marzocchi fork, 12s Deore groupset). I think with Deore 12s, Z2's, and an increasingly crowded marketplace the last 4 years have been a bit of a golden age for "entry level" bikes.

N.b. deore is well made and all metal bits where it matters, it's on a par with SX/NX for weight and performance when new, the difference is Deore will outlast SRAM many times over. And NX/SX use the HG freehub. So you're in a reverse catch-22, I wouldn't buy sx/NX unless I really was intending/prepared to upgrade it, and it's not upgradeable. Whereas Deore can/will last an unreasonabley long time, but is easily upgraded.

Weight
- if it breaks or wears out that will be a problem.

-If you bike weighs x and has always weighed x and you don't weigh it or compare it to other people's, it won't be a problem.

A mate turned up yesterday day on his medium ti sonder broken road with sids and some very minimal tires.

I did not pick it up or ask how much it weighs compared to my XL steel hello Dave with mudguards, tools, 2.6 grippy tires.

He was after up the climbs- because he is riding more than me at the moment. His kids are 20 mine are 0 and 4.

I had to spend 3 fixing stuff on my bikes yesterday. A broken and a dented spoke on the front wheel of the light 28 spoke hubbed wheels was part of it.

If the wheels were 32 spoke it would have been easier.
If they were heavier they might not have broken.

My 2p
Get the durable stuff that make you want to ride. Don't worry about weight.

Depends what you want as the end result imo. I'd normally go for a better frame and fork then upgrade but if you look at some of the deals out there (or were available) you can buy a bikes worth of decent parts for very little cash that happen to be attached to a cheap frame.

Given you seem to keep your bikes a decent amount of time I'd get the best frame/forks you can, one that you like the look of and will enjoy owning. Cheap frames are fine but I always find myself more attached to my fancier bikes.

I would say spend the money on the best frame and fork. Light wheels are wonderful but hardtails can be pretty tough on them so fairly easy to justify a later upgrade. Iv been using a Microshift Advent x setup on my Scandal and its really pretty good and an absolute bargain.

I'd go expensive frame, forks, tyres and then cheap components - you can always upgrade components as they wear out. But I'm the sort of person who keeps a bike for years - newest bike is a 5.5 year old Soul with about 5.5k miles on it - slx 11spd is just fine.

I'd rather have the Deore than the GX anyway.

But to answer the question... Frame > Fork > Brakes > Wheels > Gears in that order of importance.

Mid frame & mid components (but possibly expensive suspension).

Best frame ans suspension you can afford. Componeys can be upgraded as they wear out

Always decent frame first, then forks (unless rigid), then wheels and brakes, then other components.
Deore works just as well as more expensive stuff, just not as bling.

I run 8spd Microshift Acolyte on one bike. Groupset aimed at kids bikes, but it's tough and cheap!

Bird Zero 29? Looks like you can get one with a Pike Ultimate, SLX and DT Swiss wheels for around 2k. Great handling bike and customer service.

yet the Chameleon is only 2lb lighter.

Try not to get hung up on this, parts have generally got heavier (and more robust as a result), and they're better for it. If it was me, I'd spend my money of frame, fork and wheels in that order and then everything else, I think the days of high end groupsets being massively better quality than cheaper stuff have gone, and I'd happily have Deore/NX bits, or even cheaper still; 11 speed stuff (especially Shimano) which by comparison is dirt cheap.

While the Scandal is a great bike, it wasn't until I got a properly good frame (a Yeti ARC) to realise that there are much better frames out there, and while my example is extreme, I'd bet money that you'd feel the difference after being on the Scandal all day vs something like the Chameleon.

"I’d bet money that you’d feel the difference after being on the Scandal all day vs something like the Chameleon."

I've done 60 miles/8,000ft day on my Scandal as a part of a multi-day ride, would a Chameleon be comfier?

I'd just caveat the comments above with Expensive =/= better.

The only guaranteed difference between a £200 and a £1200 frame is £1000.

£1000 of marketing is of zero value to you as a consumer.

£1000 of designer, manufacturer, distributor margins is of no value to you a as consumer, it's often worse as you wait for months for the "head office" in California to approve your warranty claim.

£1000 of R&D is only of any value if they actually found something in their research worth developing. The cheap frame made from kinesis/maxway/merrida/others stock tubing might be perfectly fine. My first MTB was a Carrera, made by Merida, who were part of the same company as Specialized. So my £275 halfords bike was blatantly using some of the same very distinctive tubeset as some very expensive models (it was still shit, but that's because it was the 90's).

So picking the best frame regardless of price, isn't the same as picking the most expensive. Draw up a list of features you consider essential, then pick the frame that ticks all the boxes for the lowest cost. Or demo them, but try and avoid conformational bias when riding the expensive ones.

I think that with hardtail frames quite often the extra money is spent on a combination of features (internal routing, extra bosses, in frame storage etc), maybe being up to date on geometry (frame refreshes cost money) and marketing.

My personal theory as that as hardtail geometry has changed with longer headtubes and shorter seat-tubes, they've become like narrow diamonds and are naturally more compliant anyway.

If you're looking at a frame with decent geometry, and don't need or want the extra features, quite often a cheap one is as good as a more expensive one IMO.

I'm not sure carbon offers much for a hardtail frame, other than lightness.

I’ve done 60 miles/8,000ft day on my Scandal as a part of a multi-day ride, would a Chameleon be comfier?

It's impossible for me to say "Yes, it would be comfier", you can only ever relate your own experience. I was content with my Scandal right up to the point when I did a similar ride on the Yeti and released just how much the Scandal beat me up. YMMV

I would say cheap (but decent frame) with good forks, wheels and tires. Deore components work fine, just a little bit heavier.

As it happens I’ve got an XL Vitus Sentier frame on the classifieds right now, excellent compromise between the long, low, slack gnarpoons and old school xc type bikes!

I think that the above mentioned vitus sentier would be an excellent starting point to make a very capable hardtail whilst taking advantage of the component bargains out there at the moment.

I'd vote for the 'Good frame, cheap parts'.

Most cheap parts are pretty good these days but cheap or expensive, they will wear out which will be the basis to replace with better. Keeping a good frame at the heart of it will be fair easier and cost effective to upgrade around than maintaining shiny high brand parts around a less good 'heart'.

A cheap frame can be a good frame though.

Frame, fork, wheels & tyres in balance.
Then brakes.
Everything else is Deore or Microshift, plus cheap or OEM bars, dropper, saddle.

And I would totally consider second hand HT frame...

It's all about the owner tbh- are you an upgrader/tweaker, do you have strong opinions on components or not, could parts you don't like drag the bike down? And all that.

I bought a full bike and a year later the only parts left were frame fork and headset, but it worked out great because those parts were really good, and while some of the othe rparts got taken off before I even rode it, the others at least let me figure out what was important, what I'd definitely want from the new bits. But it'd have been a disaster for someone else.

Personally I wouldn't overthink it and just buy whichever bike you think looks coolest.

@northwind

My bike twiddling is limited to replacing tyres (usually with exact same replacements!) when they are worn down to the canvas and replacing brake pads when worn down to the backing plate (I might experiment a little with non-OEM brake pad material!)

All the bikes on my list are "reasonable" and "modern" ie boost frame/forks, 12s drivetrain, modern geometry and a fairly tight range of reach, stack, head angle, seat angle and chain stay numbers.

What I'm not sure is what they ride like and, realistically, getting a decent, off road test ride on most of them is unlikely.

At the most extreme ends of the spectrum are a carbon XC race frame with a 120mm RockShox SID (but probably too stiff and not enough tyre clearance) and, at the other end is the slackest frame with a 150mm Lyric Ultimate and the best group set but which probably rides like a slug uphill.

On paper, I'm tempted by both in an N+1 way...

And just to clarify, I'm not in the UK so a lot of the suggestions above are not available to me (and I'm not getting a bike by mail order!)