Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Expensive eBike purchase mistake :-(
  • Premier Icon flanagaj
    Free Member

    I took a Cannondale Synapse Neo for a spin and loved it, but could not justify the price tag so I purchased a Boardmana APex 9.8 ADV E with the Fazua mid mount motor instead. My decision was based on the published torque figures so I (wrongly) assumed they would feel the same.

    Just commuted 20 miles to work on the bike and now wish I’d demoed the Fazua motor first as it is completely different to the Bosch. The Bosch Active Line motor would drag you up the hills so long as you kept the pedals turning, where the Fazua seems to back off if you too back off the effort.

    My commute took just as long as on my carbon bike with no motor and I don’t think my average HR was much lower for the ride either which is really disappointing as given my 20 mile ride is 1400ft of elevation I had high hopes for shaving off a fair amount of time whilst also being able to get the HR right down as well.

    So if interested there may well be a one ride Boardman up for sale for a good price.

    Premier Icon Moses
    Full Member

    WIll the LBA give you a partial refund / trade-in on a swap? Or was the Boardman from a different shop?

    Premier Icon endoverend
    Full Member

    The shop I used to work at would have allowed you to return the bike if it didn’t meet expectations, providing you chose another option or upgraded to something closer to what you were expecting, maybe worth enquiring before selling.

    Premier Icon brant
    Full Member

    Sounds like a firmware/software/mode setting?

    Premier Icon munrobiker
    Free Member

    Yeah, I’ve ridden a Fazua assisted bike (a Lapierre) and it is totally different to other ebikes. The boost is very light, a sort of tailwind up a hill, rather than the full power assist of a Bosch or STEPS powered bike. I can see it being aimed at mountain bikers who are pretty fit already but want to do bigger days with more climbing or more mileage, you aren’t going to be battering up every climb at 15mph on it.

    For road bikes, I’d say it’s about perfect for a moderately fit rider who wants to do a 20 mile each way commute without getting overly fatigued for a week but it’s not going to suit someone who wants to do it at a lower rate of effort whilst not being especially fit.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    I’d expect this to be at least somewhat configurable..? Have you had a good read of the manual?

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Full Member

    Have you had a good read of the manual?

    what person ever does that…… Buy something toss manual to one side then declare the item broke when it doesn’t work as expected

    Premier Icon mashr
    Full Member

    where the Fazua seems to back off if you too back off the effort.

    Isn’t that exactly the same as one of the main modes on the Bosch?

    Premier Icon trail_rat
    Free Member

    sounds like you have a (much lauded by some) torque sensing motor when it appears you want an non torque sensing motor – which i use for similar reasons to your self.

    Premier Icon flanagaj
    Free Member

    sounds like you have a (much lauded by some) torque sensing motor when it appears you want an non torque sensing motor – which i use for similar reasons to your self.

    Yes. It is a torque sensing motor which would therefore explain the ride feel that I experienced. I spoke to Cycle Republic and they mentioned I might be able to upgrade the settings so the assist is increased. Have a look tonight.

    Given it was purchased from Halfords I doubt there is much movement on return / exchange.

    Premier Icon andy5390
    Full Member

    IIRC Halfords won’t let you test ride a bike. If this is the case, surely you could get a refund if it doesn’t match your expectations

    Premier Icon weeksy
    Full Member

    Ring them and explain the situation ? DO they have a Bosch/Steps bike you could likely exchange to ?

    Premier Icon brant
    Full Member

    Yes. It is a torque sensing motor which would therefore explain the ride feel that I experienced.

    All decent mid motors are torque sensing.

    Premier Icon Blackflag
    Full Member

    According to the fazua website…

    “Your dealer can set the strength of the three possible support levels according to your individual requirements”

    Take it back in and ask them to improve the torque / assist ratio.

    Premier Icon flanagaj
    Free Member

    I’ll speak with them, but it’s my own fault for not researching this more. I stupidly looked at a torque table of the Bosch vs the Fazua and the Fazua had a higher torque so I assumed it offered greater assistance.

    Premier Icon n0b0dy0ftheg0at
    Free Member

    IIRC Halfords won’t let you test ride a bike

    I thought the exception was e-bikes, they’ve been offering 48 hour demos for over a year at selected branches.

    https://www.halfords.com/advice/cycling/buyers-guides/electric-bikes-buyers-guide-halfords#48hour
    I’ve never read the T&Cs, so no idea if some bike models are excluded.

    30min e-bike demo at any store, which is new to me https://www.halfords.com/advice/cycling/buyers-guides/electric-bikes-buyers-guide-halfords#30min

    Premier Icon Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    (waits for statlerwaldorf to come and tell us that it’s ‘still a motorbike’ and the ‘pedals are simply there as a loophole in the law’)

    Sounds like an expensive mistake, ask Halfords? I wish I could be more useful. Tell you what, you can have my Longitude (is full XTR and Hope specced to same overall cost As the ADV, still under 100 dry miles on it) if you want and I’ll take that abomination off your hands. You won’t be any quicker, but you could take it around the world off-grid 😝

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Understandable mistake to make.

    I regard it as my god-given right not to read manuals, so this is another point in the “cons” column for ebikes I’m afraid.

    Premier Icon koldun
    Free Member

    If you bought it recently you may well be fine – https://www.halfords.com/advice/customer-services/delivery-returns

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    I had high hopes for shaving off a fair amount of time whilst also being able to get the HR right down as well

    People I know who’ve swapped to ebikes for commuting say it’s not much faster, but it enables them to ride in/out far more often due to the assistance. But, what do you mean by “HR right down”… do you mean your HR is measurably reduced compared to riding your carbon road bike, but still much higher than resting rate? Because that sounds pretty normal as well.

    Premier Icon trumpton
    Free Member

    clean it up and take it back. Halfords are very fair I think. Doubt it is much dirtier than the test ridden bikes and I bet they do not have specific test ride bikes either. You probably just test the one you want.

    Premier Icon flanagaj
    Free Member

    So just for reference here are my ride stats for today and for the same ride in late August on my non e bike (I have been riding twice a week since then, but doing 30 mile evening rides so no commuting)

    Today (Bike was on turbo mode max assistance())
    20.7 miles / 12.01 mph average / 135 avg hr / 161 max

    August
    20.7 miles / 13.4 mph average / 145 avg hr / 171 max

    So as you can see from the above, I’m not sure what I actually gained from the ebike as the hr was marginally lower but the average speed was down also.

    Premier Icon duncancallum
    Full Member

    You buy it online? Sales laws different.

    I’d just go back and as them tbh

    Premier Icon mikesbikes71
    Full Member

    If they’ll only do a swap then get a voodoo zobop e. It’s a full suspension but you could put some marathons and bar ends on and on turbo you’ll be hovering around the limit with minimal effort. 1 charge should do the full round trip.
    It’ll be a blast at the weekend for trails also.

    Premier Icon fossy
    Full Member

    Weather and temperature is different from now and in August. So it probably does help.

    Premier Icon TiRed
    Full Member

    Your figures shows it works. Very roughly:

    Power ratio is (12.01/13.4)^3 = 72%

    HR ratio is 135/145 = 93%

    For me, at steady-state: Power = 2HR – 80, so using the same algorithm gives a power ratio of 90%, which is not far from the HR ratio you have. You have saved about 18% power, and assuming that your normal average is about 150 watts, you are getting almost 270 watts of power. Only a rough average and I imagine your power is more likely to be about 2HR – 100 (depends on fitness), but the evidence is that your working 10-20% less for the same speed.

    Premier Icon mattyfez
    Free Member

    Just buy a motorbike, jeez…

    Premier Icon bigrich
    Free Member

    Halfords are all torque

    Premier Icon Watty
    Full Member

    Just buy a motorbike, jeez…

    He did 😉

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    If your battery discharged during the ride then it’s definitely helped you one way or another, as that energy went into your wheels. Ok so some of that goes to carrying the extra weight up hills – how much heavier is the bike?

    Premier Icon maxtorque
    Full Member

    cough, chip-it, cough. You ain’t seen me, right!

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    If your battery discharged during the ride then it’s definitely helped you one way or another

    +1 can’t escape physics. How much of the battery did it use? Is it possible the motor is just better at delivering the torque when you do than the Bosch so you never notice it?

    Premier Icon flanagaj
    Free Member

    Fazua state that level 3 gives 240% extra. So if I put in 100 watts the motor adds another 240 watts. So 340 watts.

    If you use the calculator here Calculator

    Might try and get my hands on some Garmin Vector pedals and someone with a turbo so I can measure watts at the pedals and at the rear wheel to see whether it is indeed giving out the 240% assistance

    Premier Icon scaredypants
    Full Member

    TiRed
    Member

    Your figures shows it works. Very roughly:
    Power ratio is (12.01/13.4)^3 = 72%
    HR ratio is 135/145 = 93%

    Interesting figures – never seen those used before. Are they validated ? where do they come from ? (I’m interested rather than dissing them, … although … 😉 )
    Power ratio – Seems a big difference for ave speeds where aero is probably irrelevant for most of the ride. I’d swallow it if OP’s speeds were 30 and 33.
    Is HR ratio a legit thing ? I think I’d be subtracting resting HR from both to get “excess” HR if I was trying to make it mean something, so making maybe 70/80 if OP has a 65 resting rate (is that what your HRx2-80 is doing ?). 70/80 is still around 85%, mind but then I think the differential in power ratios may be a bit “optimistic”

    Edit/add:
    Forgot about the motor assist. That makes all this even less plausible IMO. Reading flanagaj’s post above mine, ave 13.4 mph at 340% of actual leg power – where is this ride, up and down a 20% hill – or is flanangaj putting out under 50W on the flat?

    I’m coming down on the side of “minimal assist”

    Premier Icon TiRed
    Full Member

    power increases to the cube of speed, so the relative power required is just the ratio of speeds to the power of three. The benchmark here is the average on a normal bike, say 13 mph. Want to travel at 20 mph, then you will need (20/13)^3 times more power (all else being equal). Needless to say, going fast gets VERY hard.

    For HR, I validated 2*HR – 80 using my power meter as a reasonable steady-state (i.e., average over some constant effort, rather than just jumping around due to sprint efforts). That means that when I’m chugging along at 140 bpm, my power is 200 watts – I’m usually at about 20 mph on a road bike and 24 mph on a TT bike (more aero). It’s an OK estimate but fails at the extremes (max HR etc..). I have several power meters, including a PowerCal, that uses rate of change of HR to estimate power with a simple regression. I made some more complex ones for fun too.

    What my simple sum ignores is the difference in weight – which is not huge, but could be important if the route is not flat. Aerodynamics are assumed to be the same for both bikes.

    Premier Icon sirromj
    Full Member

    Get a shorter commute and ditch the ebike. I did 4.5 miles today with an avg HR of 107, avg speed 10.8 mph. Didn’t get bored either.

    Premier Icon kelron
    Free Member

    “I don’t like my new bike.”

    “Get a new job/house. And a new bike too.” – STW

    Premier Icon damascus
    Free Member

    If you average over 13mph on a normal bike I’d expect you to average at least 15.5mph on an ebike? Otherwise what’s the point of it?

    How heavy is the beast?

    Premier Icon simondbarnes
    Full Member

    If you average over 13mph on a normal bike I’d expect you to average at least 15.5mph on an ebike? Otherwise what’s the point of it?

    To get to work less fatigued.

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