For a start , what car is it? Kia and Hynudai slow down charging rates above 80, but they have a hidden % on the top so you never go to 100%.
FWIW I charge to 100% quite a lot and after 5 years in a Leaf degredation is pretty low. I suspect in the real world , in the UK (it’s not super hot) this is less of a problem than is speculated

VW ID.3

The OP’s range of 180 miles will be more like 150 tops, and then if its a cold start it will be about 120 miles, if they go over 50mph it will be about 100 miles. In the middle of summer if AC working it will be about 80 miles, and in the winter when it gets below freezing and is dark about 70 miles.

Given she drives about 25-30 miles a day with probably half the time in slow moving traffic it seems like that’s a very sensible range. The question was really is it better to charge it once a week, only when it is dead, or more often (no home charger yet).

Ok perhaps I am not quite explaining it. In a petrol car you can take that reduction because you know there will be a petrol station around the corner to fill up.

Don’t go to rural parts of Scotland then! I’ve had plenty of “fuel anxiety” over the years! Roadside rapid chargers are widely available. Like most people with an EV it will be unusual to have to stop mid-journey to charge on the go, and if we do its probably such a long journey that its a good idea anyway. We do have a petrol car too though…

Transporting it is no harder than propane which we do already.

– It’s much much harder to liquify and has some rather strange properties due to the tiny molecule size.

– Propane is brought from the ground and transported around the world as crude oil, which is packed with tons of other very useful and valuable things which all contribute towards the cost of shipping and processing it. Not so with hydrogen.

– Hydrogen for cars has been talked about ever since I was a kid, and it’s had backing from major manufactures and fuel suppliers, and it hasn’t taken off, whereas batteries are. I don’t think this is a fluke, I think the manufacturers have looked at the problems of having to create production and supply chain from scratch and decided there’s not enough benefit to H (if any) to justify it. And as per the VW paper, it’s much less efficient so you’d need 2-3x the renewable capacity to run cars on H. Now, the big advantage I could see would be that you could generate hydrogen wherever there’s water and heat wind or sunshine (e.g. Iceland, Gulf, Western Australia etc) but again the problems of transportation seem to be a significant barrier.

The question was really is it better to charge it once a week, only when it is dead, or more often (no home charger yet).

Set limit on wall charger (or car) to 80% and ignore it until you want a long trip at which point you get your phone out the evening before and press a button to top it off.

I wonder if now that “range” is the new top trumps figure of choice now that even the massive e-tron will out-accelerate most things in the real world, we’ll see a decline in SUV’s?

In theory, an SUV gives you more space to hide batteries in the floor, in reality when you see an e-tron next to a Model-S you kinda think “well duhhhh ….. of course it has a lower range”.

That planet-killing convenience FunkyDuck mentioned.

The E-Tron is a big beast that’s very true, it was brought as an easy option to build for now and it appeals to most popular car just now. They have an A6 EV in the pipeline that looks rather nIce.

Yea, I was surprised when I saw one in the flesh as my boss has an A3 E-tron hybrid thingy which looks the same in a photograph, but is A3 sized, the new electric E-tron looks about the size of Q7?

Personally, as someone who drives ~250mile each way commute occasionally (well, once or twice a week for 3 months then very little in-between jobs) that <250 mile range wouldn’t bother me. By the time I’d stopped, used the facilities and bought a coffee it’d be 80% charged anyway. Driving 4 hours straight at motorway speeds is something I did, especially towards the end when I was getting fed up of the commute but it’s not something I’d boast about or want to do regularly. I’d not want to take a reaction time test towards the end of it for sure!

Moot though, my car cost £600, not £60k, it’ll be a while before I can afford the CAPEX even if the OPEX would actually make it cheaper.

Yeah they’re around Q7 size so rather big.

Poly – so you got an ID3 – how are you finding it, it’s on our shortlist

Given she drives about 25-30 miles a day with probably half the time in slow moving traffic it seems like that’s a very sensible range. The question was really is it better to charge it once a week, only when it is dead, or more often (no home charger yet).

I don’t honestly think it much matters to the battery beyond the best practice to avoid running it very low or charging it very high. If you’ve got off street parking I’d get in the habit of plugging it in every couple of days just so it’s generally charged enough to go a bit further if you so choose.

Whether that’s into a 3 pin plug (10a), 16a, 32a or home charge point (also 32a) is maybe then a bit of a moot point. Most of the time at least.

In theory, an SUV gives you more space to hide batteries in the floor

Yeah, this is a factor. The floors on all the cars I tried was quite high – in the back, I couldn’t get my feet under the front seat – just my toes. Fortunately legroom was ample in all of them so it wasn’t an issue, but if you were taller maybe.

ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range, they are comparible to long range teslas from a number of early tests. I should be getting an ID4 in September as my next company car. It will be a different way of thinking and defo long journey planning but different is good and I’m all for it.

Already got an ebike so well used to range anxiety!

ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range

I don’t think the trade-off is range, because no matter how big a motor you fit you’re still only using the same power at the same speed. However if you dial up the current to give crazy acceleration you’ll not only degrade the battery faster but you’ll also have to fit much bigger tyres and brakes etc and have to put in a lot more fancy electronics to control it. And probably two motors too for 4WD. So the tradeoff is cost. But then with money saved you could probably fit more batteries at the same price point so maybe 🙂

ID4 and Enyaq seem to have traded crazy acceleration for range

There must be some tradeoff carrying around the bigger motor, but isn’t it overall the other way around? The limiting factor being how quickly can you get power out of the batteries, more batteries = more power. The exception that proves the rule being race cars where the battery doesn’t have to survive many charge cycles.

Hence why Tesla offers 2 tiers, the normal range and 0-60 in 3 seconds, or long-range and 0-60 in 2 seconds because the second actual motor required to pull off that party trick isn’t the expensive bit.

Having said that (and relevant to the OP) Audi say the e-tron has a 95kwh battery of which 86kwh is useable (that ~80%), Skoda say theirs has a 82kwh battery. In which case, how does it pull off the trick of longer range if, presumably, it’s going to be an e-tron in a primark t-shirt? Or are they using a different basis?

traded crazy acceleration for range

Generally doesn’t seem to be that much of an either/or. Up to a point EVs just do have fast acceleration, presumably because the motors they’re using for all sorts of reasons do it anyway. For me, the rate of regen feels right so I wonder whether that has an impact on sizing the motors.

If those SUVs have really good real world range I assume they must have bigger batteries or have made some strides in efficiency. Or not actually be SUV tall.

Skoda say theirs has a 82kwh battery. In which case, how does it pull off the trick of longer range if, presumably, it’s going to be an e-tron in a primark t-shirt?

Isn’t it a smaller car?

I just plug mine in to the mains overnight so it’s often fully charged and I get no warnings about 80%. Had it a year and there’s been no drop in range and it’s back up to 150ish since the weather warmed up a bit. BMW i3s btw, it’s ace.

I’ve had my ID3 for a week, its great and the 80% charge is sufficient for 95% of usage including my 140 mile round trip commute.

On the days I go beyond the range of the vehicle in one go it will get 100% charge.

That was my interpretation of how to use. If I was doing close to the 100% range every day I would be looking for destination charging to top up anyway.

Great cars though despite the software teething issues, my daily commute was £17 a day in diesel and now its 1/10th of that or less if I get enough solar into the car 🙂

Isn’t it a smaller car?

I fell for that trick when I saw the e-tron (I don’t know, just assumed VAG would be trying to get one platform to market first before investing in another one)

Transporting it [hydrogen] is no harder than propane which we do already.

Sorry, missed this little gem from the last page

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Did you sleep through GCSE chemisty?

It’s such an absolute faff to transport that refineries would rather use it as fuel. They usually have one small storage facility that holds enough of the excess they produce to do a black-start of the hydrotreater/hydrocracker, the rest just goes into the fuel gas system.

It will be a different way of thinking and defo long journey planning but different is good and I’m all for it.

The need to plan journeys is getting less and less all the time. We started using an EV as our main car in 2017; journeys are a lot easier now than they were only a few years ago. There are so many more chargers, new ones are being installed all the time, and our second car charges faster than the first so stopping to recharge is less of a bother. Gridserve have just started a program to massively improve the number and speed of chargers at motorway services, and they’re popping up at supermarkets, pubs and other places all over the place.

A couple of weeks ago there was an article where they were installing something like 25 chargers at a services on the M1 (some low junction number I forget) and whilst searching for a link for it I found out about a new EV filling station in Essex:

https://www.gridserve.com/2020/12/06/gridserve-opens-uks-first-electric-forecourt/

Sorry, missed this little gem from the last page

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Did you sleep through GCSE chemisty?

It’s such an absolute faff to transport that refineries would rather use it as fuel. They usually have one small storage facility that holds enough of the excess they produce to do a black-start of the hydrotreater/hydrocracker, the rest just goes into the fuel gas system.

Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It’s attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because “nuclear is too hard”. Musk is putting a man on Mars soon, I’m sure with some investment we can make moving a gas around a bit easier.

Poly – so you got an ID3 – how are you finding it, it’s on our shortlist

its fine, its a lot of “space age” weird design. I think if you have a wide choice you might want to take one for a spin and see how you get on with the dashboard / computer thing… everything is done through it and as I don’t drive it every day I certainly don’t find it intuitive.

Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It’s attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because “nuclear is too hard”.

Yeah no, doesn’t work like that.

Nearly 40m people in California.
655,000 EVs
22,000 public charging points
43 hydrogen filling stations.

One major factor in this is that most places already have electricity, and the ability to add more capacity is very well understood and cheap to do.

How are the early adopters finding the motorway service station recharge experience? Is waiting for a charger a thing yet? I guess the last year with reduced traffic might not be the best time to judge.

But given most folk who bother to stop at a motorway service station have got a reasonable journey still ahead of them I guess when us luddites join the party way more than 50% of parking places at one will need to be a charging station.

Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on.

It’s not that hydrogen infrastructure can’t be done, it’s that it will always be a PITA.

Really liking the look of the Hyundi Ioniq 5 (never thought I’d say that as a car fan!). Cool looks (hate the front of teslas) v fast charging (800v tech), decent performance, roomy for big teenagers in the back. Wonder how much the lease deals will be when it comes to UK later in the year.

Do not kid yourselves – electric cars are no more sustainable than ICE ones. Its greenwash

Reduce!
Reuse
recycle

How are the early adopters finding the motorway service station recharge experience?

I don’t really rely on them because Ecotricity have had a (government grant funded) monopoly on them for a decade and not invested in it much since. At least now Gridserve have taken a stake and will be replacing old units and expanding much more in the coming year or so which is badly needed. New sites like Rugby M6 have a dozen units for all, plus a dozen more for Teslas. Some sites now have Ionity (expensive though), or BP/Shell units going in on the petrol forecourt.

Lots of just-off-motorway hubs springing up though, I tend to stop at Milton Keynes Parkway (8 Polar rapid chargers, plus some Ionity ones) or Banbury (8 Instavolt chargers).

It’s not that hydrogen infrastructure can’t be done, it’s that it will always be a PITA.

In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes. Pick a worse fuel than petrol and get used to it. Petrol is as convenient as you can get, and neither of the alternatives are good substitutions but we will be forced into one of them for a while before personal use vehicles are taken away from the masses completely.

In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes

Well no, because they are not the same. For one thing, I don’t think many people have a hydrogen tank on their driveway.

Do not kid yourselves – electric cars are no more sustainable than ICE ones. Its greenwash

Nah, it’s a positive step. And I know what you’ll say so no need to type it out again.

In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes.

No they aren’t. Plenty of happy users even on this very thread. So no. Having to stop every few hours on your long trip isn’t really a massive pain in the arse.

FunkyDunc
ie a trip to the lakes might not be possible, not without an 1hr long stop in between etc, and then no where to charge when you get there

Funnily enough I’m currently sat at the rapid charger in Ambleside, just given it 20mins to give me enough to drive to Patterdale tomorrow, pick up a bike in Kendal and then comfortably get home (Bingley).

Look at California, thanks to government grants they have a huge number of hydrogen filling stations now and it’s increasing every year, it’s not beyond the wit of man to work on making it easier as time goes on. It’s attitudes like that which kept us using coal fired power plants 50 years after we should have stopped because “nuclear is too hard”. Musk is putting a man on Mars soon, I’m sure with some investment we can make moving a gas around a bit easier.

Go on then, why despite a worldwide surplus of hydrogen, do we not use it for cars?

Every refinery I’ve ever worked on has produced a surplus of it. And refinery margins are tight, really tight. If there was a way of monetizing hydrogen they’d do it. We’re now in the process of running plants on hydro electric power because products are valuable and burning them doesn’t make sense. But hydrogen…….

As soon as you (very inefficiently because it’s such low density and won’t liquefy under economical conditions) try and put it in a pipe, it’s trying to get it out. It works it’s way out of flanges because they can never be that tight, it makes metals brittle because it can get inbetween the individual crystals in their structure, it’ll even seep out through the metal itself.

By all means, just tell me to pull my finger out. If it worked and the Hydrogen economy took off I’d be a trillionaire 🤣

In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes.

Mine is needing charged. I’ll put it on the free charger on my way home and then walk home. The wife will walk and collect it when she sets off for work, another 170 miles that will see us until Sunday unless we go somewhere at the weekend.

@molgrips if that service station story is right then Keith (small town, north east Scotland) is a real trail blazer because the petrol station there has included a fast charger for the last couple of years!

I just plug mine in to the mains overnight so it’s often fully charged and I get no warnings about 80%. Had it a year and there’s been no drop in range and it’s back up to 150ish since the weather warmed up a bit. BMW i3s btw, it’s ace.

I do too, BMW have decided that you can charge to 100% all the time, because it’s not really 100% of the battery, they have built in a buffer/over sized battery. Other manufacturers have chosen to do it differently and allow you the option.

To me it makes sense to get in the habit of plugging it in as soon as I get home, it charges overnight off peak unless I need it sooner. It’s much less hassle than filling up with diesel after a nightshift.

‘In the same way that electric cars will always be a massive pain in the arse yes’

As a long term user I can vouch that’s just bosh. Easiest car I’ve ever owned, and mine is primitive with rubbish range. Charge at home, don’t pay for petrol, and super reliable, easy to drive. Apart from range ICE cars are rubbish on most every practical measure

Mine is needing charged. I’ll put it on the free charger on my way home and then walk home. The wife will walk and collect it when she sets off for work, another 170 miles that will see us until Sunday unless we go somewhere at the weekend.

Is that out of choice (because it’s free) to charge not at home or don’t you have the facility there? I’m guessing free charging will cease to be a thing once it becomes a more significant proportion of the car pool.

Is that out of choice (because it’s free) to charge not at home or don’t you have the facility there? I’m guessing free charging will cease to be a thing once it becomes a more significant proportion of the car pool.

Yeah it’s a choice to charge free or pay to charge at home. It was supposed to end last month but typically the council are rubbish so it’s still free, it’s also 7x faster

Well I’m lying in bed post nights meanwhile my car is ‘refuelling’ ready for my wife to collect.

Apart from range ICE cars are rubbish on most every practical measure

Yeah, whilst everyone worries about battery longevity they don’t seem at all bothered by flywheels, transmissions, injectors, turbos, EGR valves, coil packs, spark plugs, valve stems, HT leads, and all the rest of the crap that goes wrong with IC cars whilst they spew pollution over pedestrians and other road users.