So better half recently got an EV. Its marketed as having a ~230 mile range. However when you try to charge it the in car charge display strongly discourages going about 80% = 180 miles… Presumably in non-covid times there might have been face-to-face handover to understand such quirks but she just got chucked the keys. It came with about 220 miles on it so had been 100% charged.

So it must be OK to at least occasionally charge beyond 80% as otherwise the car would not let you (rather than strongly suggest), and they’d never get away with the marketing. I had seen all the quoted times about charging to 80% and assumed that the last 20% just took much longer. So what’s the story? What does it mean to the battery life? Is 85% just as bad as 100% or if she wants 200 miles range is 90% good enough? Is it better to go 80-20; 80-20; 80-20; 80-20 or 100-20; 100-20; 100-20 (ie. charging more but less often). Oh or 80-40; 80; 40; 80-40; 80-40; 80-40; 80-40.

do we still need to bump?

You preserve the life of the battery by not charging above 80% the majority of the time. Full charging when doing a long journey is absolutely fine.

The 0-80% charge from a fast charger is due to the way the voltage ramps down toward the end of the charge period to avoid damaging the battery. 0-80% will charge at full rate and it will taper down to very little as it approaches 95+% You’ll find that if 100% charge from a fast charger takes 60mins, then 0-80% will likely take 25-30mins and the remaining 20% will take the remaining 50% of the time.

It’s better for the battery to never be fully depleted or fully charged.

AIUI only charge to 100% if you’re doing a single trip that needs the range, if it’s everyday trips of 30-40 miles then 80% will be fine and you look after the battery.

This is an interesting one and there are literally 1000s of threads on the EV forums about it. I’m currently on page 10/107 of the Model 3 ‘charging and battery deg’ thread!

You’re correct about the last 10-20% up to a full charge taking a lot longer, whether you’re on a slow charger at home or a rapid on the road, it will be relatively slower.

Re. battery deg – my understanding is that it’s not just about charging the pack to 100% but leaving it at a high State of Charge (SoC) for any extended period of time. If you’re going on a trip and need to charge to 100% then you should ensure you are hitting the road sharpish.

Good practice is to only charge above 80% if you actually need it and plug it in regularly, Tesla advice is to plug in every night even if you’ve only used a few %.

Re. the bottom end of the range – not too sure about the mechanics of it but I get warnings from the car when it hits about 10-15% SoC (only done that twice) and advice from Tesla is to manage between 20-80%.

For reference my M3P has a quoted WLTP range of 329miles. In reality I think it would struggle to do 250 miles and that’s 100-0% so for my (hopefully!) trip from Newcastle to Goodwood in July I’ll be hitting two superchargers on the way down and same back up for ~640 mile round trip.. and even then I may have to factor in another if my range anxiety kicks in!

Yep, the general thinking is avoid staying at the extremes for long – so going to 100% overnight before a long trip is fine, but if you were topping up to 100% every night then doing a couple of miles then topping up again it’s not so good. By defaulting to 80% unless you override it stops people doing that without thinking about it.

On the other hand, battery management is much better than it used to be, packs tend to have decent buffers top and bottom to prevent/reduce any damage so it’s really not worth fretting too much about.

For a start , what car is it? Kia and Hynudai slow down charging rates above 80, but they have a hidden % on the top so you never go to 100%.
FWIW I charge to 100% quite a lot and after 5 years in a Leaf degredation is pretty low. I suspect in the real world , in the UK (it’s not super hot) this is less of a problem than is speculated

It is interesting as more and more people buy EV’s their limitations and ‘green’ credentials will be overturned.

The OP’s range of 180 miles will be more like 150 tops, and then if its a cold start it will be about 120 miles, if they go over 50mph it will be about 100 miles. In the middle of summer if AC working it will be about 80 miles, and in the winter when it gets below freezing and is dark about 70 miles.

Oh and dont even try putting a bike on a roof rack

Not so good are they these ‘green’ cars. I’ve been hybrid the last 6 years. My next car will be either petrol or hybrid again. No way would I go full EV (for a main use car)

What about if it’s a lease and it’s going back after three years? Battery degradation = not my problem.

Obviously that’s a shitty way to live. But it seems likely that’s how most people are buying these things, so I’d expect convenience to trump preserving battery longevity.

Got real life experience of this @FunkyDunc?

I drive an EV and don’t recognise your figures. It also doesn’t make that much difference with a bike rack on the back.

You’re just making up bollocks based on stuff you’ve read online.

Pictonroad – as I said I’ve got a hybrid

And I know someone who has a Jag

Ok slight exaggeration but the truth on range is definitely not how they are sold

Never got 73mpg out of my diesel either, manufacturers have been spinning yarns for decades.

The drop in range when it’s cold will have the biggest impact on most users.

Those numbers are nonsense, I’m assuming you’re extrapolating from a horribly inefficient PHEV. As for bike racks, not a problem. This has about a 10-15% consumption hit, much like it does on a petrol car.

It’s better for the battery to never be fully depleted or fully charged.

The software will probably handle that for you – so a reported 100% probably won’t be.

Ok slight exaggeration but the truth on range is definitely not how they are sold

You’d have to be pretty oblivious to not know this, as it’s mentioned in every single article, every review, and in millions of forum posts. Even dealers tell you.

It varies by car too, as the less aero ones (e.g. Nissan Leaf) are likely to lose more range at motorway speeds than the more aero ones (e.g. Hyundai Ioniq). This is borne out by some of the reviews I’ve read too.

Not so good are they these ‘green’ cars.

No I reckon they’re alright. A slight increase in inconvenience for a significant increase in sustainability and a technology we need to promote renewable energy usage – I can live with that. Mine’s arriving on Thursday.

Point is that if people don’t by the current crop of cars, then the manufacturers won’t put the money in to develop the new generation that have a 300 mile range and a 15 minute rapid charge, and no-one will put the infrastructure in place. Because let’s face it, leaving it to the government to promote a green revolution is a pretty risky plan these days.

This has about a 10-15% consumption hit, much like it does on a petrol car.

Ok perhaps I am not quite explaining it. In a petrol car you can take that reduction because you know there will be a petrol station around the corner to fill up.

EV’s because we are all still learning, you take the range displayed when you start the car ie 250 miles remaining and then guess what that actual range will be, possibly 200 miles. Then you have to factor in the bikes on the back.

Just means you cant get as far as you would like ie a trip to the lakes might not be possible, not without an 1hr long stop in between etc, and then no where to charge when you get there

Useable vs installed capacity is usually around 75% so the hard extremes of charge and discharge are protected against. However, as mentioned above, it’s still prudent to use the battery in a central band where possible and absolutely if stored for prolonged periods then 30-60% is a good target.
Battery management strategies are improving all the time and that 80% warning seems like a good general rule, but the battery will be designed to be fully charged so do use it when you need to but equally look after it as much as you can.

I’ve got a bike rack (roof mounted) on my Model 3 and haven’t got enough data yet to see the full picture but I don’t think it’s a million miles away from the impact it had on my old ICE car (M135i used to hammer the thimble sized petrol tank with two big bikes on the roof!) but the main difference is I could belt down the motorway then stop for 3 mins and fill up with more dino juice and be on my way again.. from a convenience perspective that would be 20+ mins stop at a rapid and maybe a more convoluted route so maybe 30 mins difference (that’s on the assumption it’s a long trip requiring charging). It just needs a bit more planning. The Tesla is our main car and other half is getting an ID3 in a couple of weeks so no more ICE for the time being.

Driving an EV then getting back in an ICE is weird, in fact even just being around an ICE makes you realise how utterly bonkers the whole thing is.. Next door’s diesel Q3 sounds like a bloody tractor and it’s probably quite refined (it’s nearly new) compared to a lot of motors out there. They just feel and sound so broken.. like the wrong answer to the question from 100 odd years ago when the oil companies wanted to make more and more money. Don’t get me started on the arsehole round the back who has an old jeep that spews acrid black smoke all over the street every morning.. I am conflicted though as a petrol head and motorsport fan (not sure what the EV version of a petrol head is) but I think we should save the hydrocarbons for the real spectacle stuff – e.g. race cars and not nipping to shops for milk.. anyway I’m way OT now and rambling. I read somewhere that ICE cars generally achieve about 75% of their quoted economy figures and EVs are about the same for range.

Yep, the difference in quoted and achievable mpg or range is a function of the difference between WTLC and real world and nothing to do with the vehicle’s energy source. The same goes for putting a bike on the roof, that’s a function of the increased aero drag, which would be the same for a ICE and EV (assuming the same model).

A slight increase in inconvenience for a significant increase in sustainability

I don’t even know about that. My Leaf is parked out the front of our house, and I’ll never need to visit a petrol station ever again. Seems really convenient (and cheap, obviously, especially we charge it at work).

NB Obvious caveat: this is a second car used only for commuting. For bigger trips we’ll use the diesel estate.

Ok perhaps I am not quite explaining it. In a petrol car you can take that reduction because you know there will be a petrol station around the corner to fill up.

EV’s because we are all still learning, you take the range displayed when you start the car ie 250 miles remaining and then guess what that actual range will be, possibly 200 miles. Then you have to factor in the bikes on the back.

Just means you cant get as far as you would like ie a trip to the lakes might not be possible, not without an 1hr long stop in between etc, and then no where to charge when you get there

The irony that my pic was actually taken at a BP petrol station 😁

Lakes? Oh no, what a difficult challenge. Here’s the rapid chargers on or very near my route there:

And places I could top up while I’m there:

Impossible. These things will never catch on. But please keep on buying the fossil fuels that you think you need.

you take the range displayed when you start the car ie 250 miles remaining and then guess what that actual range will be, possibly 200 miles.

It’s not that hard – just whack a bit off, as you just did. And the remaining range updates as go go along – if it says 250 miles at the start of your trip, it’s not going to still be blithely reporting 50 miles to go on zero charge is it?

Just means you cant get as far as you would like ie a trip to the lakes might not be possible, not without an 1hr long stop in between etc

Why’s it so bad to take a 1hr stop half way? It’s really not that big of a deal. We do need more chargers though, and that’s happening – and it’ll happen more quickly if more people buy.

I read somewhere that ICE cars generally achieve about 75% of their quoted economy figures and EVs are about the same for range.

That used to be the case, then a few years ago they created a new test cycle called WTLP that is a lot more accurate. But of course, there’s no getting away from the fact that EV range drops in cold weather – but that will change on long motorway trips too. Modern EVs have a heat pump that can move heat around between the battery, the motor and the cabin, so they might use waste heat from the motor to warm the battery if it’s generating a lot of heat at higher speeds. These kinds of enhancements are being made rapidly and appearing on cars between model refreshes so even older cars of the same apparent model can have improvements.

It’s also worth noting that as you slow down in an EV you are doing less work, as in an ICE, but you don’t have an efficiency penalty so you could get much better economy driving around town.

Thread here with mostly UK Ioniq drivers that discusses the winter loss of efficiency:

https://www.speakev.com/threads/ioniq-38kwh-max-range-in-the-depths-of-winter.157382/

you take the range displayed when you start the car ie 250 miles remaining and then guess what that actual range will be, possibly 200 miles.

I do this with my petrol car too. On a full tank the computer reckons it will get 550 miles. Which is about 20% more than it actually will get.

I’m not trying to bash EV’s, I was an early adopter, I just dont think they will be the long term solution.

As a short journey tool they are brilliant ie around town, but they are not there for long distance.

I was an early adopter

Maybe that’s your problem as things have improved. Early Leafs for example were air-cooled rather than having a heat pump.

I think they will have to be the long term solution for personal transport. What else were you thinking?

Of course less personal transport in general is ideal, but it won’t go away altogether.

As a short journey tool they are brilliant ie around town, but they are not there for long distance

Did 1600 motorway miles in the last two weeks, cost about £50.

I don’t think your ‘experience’ relates to the current generation of EV’s.

I think they will have to be the long term solution for personal transport. What else were you thinking?

Of course less personal transport in general is ideal, but it won’t go away altogether.

The thing is I don’t think they will be the long term solution, I think they’ll linger around roughly in their current form until personal transportation in general is made prohibitively expensive and most people are priced out of it completely. I don’t see them getting considerably better before all personal transportation is taken away.

Personal transportation was a failed experiment really, when it’s taken away we will all just need to get used to only going where the trains and buses go for holidays and day trips like we used to before the 50s/60s and business can be conducted via other means such as Teams. Commercial vehicles will remain but probably be moved onto LPG/hybrid, or if we get our act together with renewable electrical generation, perhaps hydrogen.

A lot (over 10) people in the work gqt Audi etrons on a super cheap lease deal and everyone to a man is happy it is a lease and that they didn’t drop £60,000+ owing to the particularly poor range of around 130 miles in winter (a few have been to Audi and are getting software updates that do nothing). I stuck with getting a nearly new Octavia and glad I did (hybrid does seem to make more sense)

Personal transportation was a failed experiment really,

Personal transportation has been there as long as we’ve had horses, which is quite a while. You’re thinking of the earlier part of the industrial period where people couldn’t afford cars and could only go where trans and busses went. They weren’t going to the Lakes for biking trips at weekends or even visiting their family in some other town, they were going to the local seaside town for one week a year.

There will always be SOME personal transportation needed as long as there are people living in the countryside and people wishing to travel. It may not be mass personal car ownership, but cars will definitely exist. And they probably should. It’s not worth driving a bus to Upper Lowerton twice a day just in case one of the eight residents wants to go to the shop; nor is it worth putting in a train line.

Commercial vehicles will remain but probably be moved onto LPG/hybrid, or if we get our act together with renewable electrical generation, perhaps hydrogen.

Why is LPG a more modern solution than electric? Electricity makes far more sense for commercial and delivery vehicles as their journeys are tightly controlled and usually lots of short stops.

I don’t think hydrogen fuelling is likely to be any better than battery EVs. You still have to generate electricity to get the hydrogen but then you have to ship the hydrogen all over the world which is very difficult to do and inefficient, even if it’s renewably generated. VW have an article here with some pretty pictures:

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydrogen-or-battery–that-is-the-question.html#

a horribly inefficient PHEV.

😆 Fighting talk. I got 4mpkWh out of mine in electric mode the other day on an 18 mile journey. Just.

Slight hijack, is the rule regards don’t fully charge same with all li-ion batteries?

Just thinking about preserving my exposure batteries, better not to fully charge unless you know you’re riding that day?

80% for everyday and 100% for longer trips is good advice, charge drop off depends on the manufacture Tesla has the worst drop off others only gradually drop off after 80%.

Funkydunc’s figure have no resemblance to my experience. Best trip I’ve had so far is 2.9 miles per KW using A roads and dual carriageway average around 60mph. It actually stayed the same range for around 10 miles then went up slightly.

@sandwicheater. yes, absolutely. More so for personal mobile devices and such as they won’t have the complex battery management strategy of a vehicle battery.

@paulhaycraft, cheers. This will likely cause me forgetting to charge my lights even more.

@sandwicheater yeah, it becomes a trade off with convenience, to some extent. Extending life vs ready to go. Another consideration is how replaceable the batteries are. One of my Moon lights (only road capable) was a standard 18650 cell which I changed for about a fiver when performance dropped to less than a commute.

Also, I must learn how to quote…….

You’re thinking of the earlier part of the industrial period where people couldn’t afford cars and could only go where trans and busses went. They weren’t going to the Lakes for biking trips at weekends or even visiting their family in some other town, they were going to the local seaside town for one week a year.

That is indeed what I am thinking, when people didn’t need to be able to go to any part of the UK at any time and would normally travel by train to popular holiday destinations. What part of what I said are you correcting? It was a failed experiment in that personal car ownership exploded in the 60s exponentially and is arguably not sustainable in the long run however efficient and clean you make the vehicle. Look how much space we have to dedicate to cars, roads, parking lots etc.

There will always be SOME personal transportation needed as long as there are people living in the countryside and people wishing to travel. It may not be mass personal car ownership, but cars will definitely exist. And they probably should. It’s not worth driving a bus to Upper Lowerton twice a day just in case one of the eight residents wants to go to the shop; nor is it worth putting in a train line.

Totally agree.

Why is LPG a more modern solution than electric? Electricity makes far more sense for commercial and delivery vehicles as their journeys are tightly controlled and usually lots of short stops.

I don’t think hydrogen fuelling is likely to be any better than battery EVs. You still have to generate electricity to get the hydrogen but then you have to ship the hydrogen all over the world which is very difficult to do and inefficient, even if it’s renewably generated.

I didn’t claim LPG was a modern solution, but I do believe it would be better than filthy diesel vans and trucks clogging up cities every day filling the air with particulates. Electricity doesn’t make sense at all for some commercial vehicles such as HGVs but does make some sense for local journey fleets like delivery vans.

Your arguments there on hydrogen are weak. Once you have got sufficient wind turbine farms you can sit generating free carbon neutral electricity and use it to make hydrogen from sea water. Transporting it is no harder than propane which we do already. You can fill the vehicle in minutes rather than hours so even in a “fleet model” scenario like delivery vans it allows you to have less total vehicles on the road as they will each have less unusable downtime. It’s also completely clean in terms of emissions, just water essentially. Hydrogen for fuel cell use is just a transportable battery (there are losses in electrical transmission and battery storage just as there is with hydrogen generation).

to the particularly poor range of around 130 miles in winter

I have the E-Tron 50 and that was my range when it was between -4 and 3c now the weather is warming I’m seeing over 170 miles. An hour to charge? Only from almost flat to 80% on a 50Kw charger. 150Kw you’ll be on your way in 20 minutes.

A slight increase in inconvenience for a significant increase in sustainability and a technology we need to promote renewable energy usage – I can live with that.

This pretty much summed up my view on buying an EV but a couple of years in and I now don’t see any increase in inconvenience, with much more than 90% of my charging happening while the car is parked at home and I have no desire to use it.

On the top and bottom of the battery, I would suggest you do some research on your specific car, because some manufacturers put enough buffer in there that you have no real impact on the health of the battery by using everything that’s available to you (but there’s less available to you), while others (like Tesla) make nearly all of it available to you and advise you only to use it when you really need it.

The Tesla advice tallies with what others have said above:
– set it to charge to 80% all the time and don’t worry about your behaviour otherwise (NB common view I tend to see is that 90% is not materially worse)
– if you occasionally set it to 100% for a long journey that’s fine, but be a little bit careful when you do, aiming to start the drive soon after you finish the charge.
– If you run it really low, plug it in straight away when you stop.

On range, or more accurately consumption, my experience is that I can drive quite easily at WLTP consumption for A road/local type journeys in decent weather but that 70mph consumes a bit more, obviously. Cold and wet affect consumption markedly as well. A 200 mile journey in good conditions driven sensibly but not obsessively uses 65% of my quoted 360 mile range, so 15% below quoted range. I suspect that is at well over the average speed of the test cycle, so I’m happy with that. For my worst winter long journeys, make that 85%, so 35% below quoted.

For short winter journeys I can consume at a much higher rate, but because I don’t run the range right down by driving short journeys, it doesn’t create a range issue.

If your car can do it, I’d set the display to percent and let the satnav tell you what it expects to use for the journey you put in. Mine gets that pretty much right. And it gets you away form a quoted range figure which assumes every road mile to be the same, which is clearly nonsense.

The above journey is quite common for me, so quite often in the winter I charge to 100%. Pretty much never in the summer. I haven’t yet seen any battery degradation in 35k miles.

Drop rates.

Time to charge I file under “who cares?” generally. It happens while I sleep.

Not the case for fast charging of course but in this case don’t forget to consider how a little planning can help. While the battery’s in the bottom half it’ll be quick, and most times you use it this is all you’ll need anyway. No point leaving it plugged in for an extra half hour to get it slowly from 70% to 100% when you were in any case going to get home with 30% left.