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David Davis is loking for litterally any excuse to get away from brexishambles!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/david-davis-threatens-to-quit-if-damian-green-sacked-unfairly

David Davis is loking for litterally any excuse to get away from brexishambles!

Yes, but why so suprised? Wasn’t it obvious from the morning after the vote?

“It’s not like there was ever a Berlin wall across the N/S Ireland border” i have no personal knowledge of the “Old” border but i have represented some soldiers who were being trained to do the security in a string of “towers” along the border . Armed troops with a high level of surveillance equipment , overt and covert patrols with a green card checklist as to when to shoot to kill. It was not a soft or porous border. (apparently doing Es while on Tower duty is seen as a bad thing allegedly)

Hardly a non-issue. Yes, no-one wants the hard border – but people DO want out of the CU, which would require one. That’s the issue.

Yes, no-one wants the hard border

Yup. So who’s going to spend cash on creating a physical border checkpoint they don’t want when 200m away you can just walk across fields?

but people DO want out of the CU, which would require one.

Why? Who’s gonna force the ROI/EU/Britain to put a barrier up, and why?

Why? Who’s gonna force the ROI/EU/Britain to put a barrier up, and why?

We voted to take back control of, among other things, our borders.

If anyone can just waltz across the Irish border, having travelled from anywhere they like in the world, where does that leave us?

The people of Calais would love it though.

Total non-issue. All three sides agree they don’t want a hard border.

Me and my wife agreed we did not want to live together this did not then make every thing a Non issue- its an issue because they agree they dont want an actual border but the solutions are complete opposites

1, is we stay in the Eu the other is we leave
I dont know why you need this explaining to you.

Most customs enforcement is intelligence lead.

Its not its actual physical borders with checks and the notion that folk wont smuggle and be honest is naive in the extreme.

I dont get why folk think a problem like this , with no obvious solution is going to be solved never mind suggest its a non issue

If we’re out of the CU then things can’t be allowed in and out freely. That’s the point of the CU.

But with a soft border, they would have no-one to stop them. I believe this is the issue.

If we’re out of the CU then things can’t be allowed in and out freely.

They won’t be *allowed* in and out freely. People will have to follow whatever procedures are required. …but you don’t need to stop people at the border for that. They can do it online from home.

Some people will break the rules. That happens anyway. If they do it on a big scale they’ll get caught. If they do it on a small scale they’ll probably get away with it, just like you or I would if we bought something on Ebay from Honk Kong without paying the tax.

If anyone can just waltz across the Irish border, having travelled from anywhere they like in the world, where does that leave us?

Far better off than if we put a hard border in.

for deviant, not that itll change his mind, obviously it was made up long ago

https://fullfact.org/immigration/some-immigration-facts-factchecked/

Deviant’s post illustrates the problem with human beings I think.

It’s not that we aren’t kind and generous. It’s that we are kind and generous to ‘us’ and are far less likely to be kind and generous to ‘them’. The problem is where you draw the boundary between ‘us’ and ‘them’.

People who live in London are closer to people in Calais than they are to people in Edinburgh. But somehow, the French are ‘them’ and ‘they’ are causing us problems. We complain about the EU doing this and that, but as of now we ARE the EU. There is no ‘they’ – it’s all ‘us’.

However Cameron, May &co have created a huge ‘them’ to reinforce the arbitrary ‘them’ boundaries people were apparently fixated on the whole time. And with much more ‘them’ in the world now, it’s going to be much easier to be less kind and generous.

Lines on a map – how **** stupid.

Its not its actual physical borders with checks and the notion that folk wont smuggle and be honest is naive in the extreme.

What precentage of parcels coming into the UK/EU from outside the EU/UK are actually checked? It’s a tiny percentage.

Borders are already leaky, we just tolerate it. Big players get caught.

If either the ROI or the UK think it’s worthwhile to do random searches they can just do it infrequently a few miles down the road, flagging people down without a barrier.

If either the ROI or the UK think it’s worthwhile to do random searches they can just do it infrequently a few miles down the road, flagging people down without a barrier.

You are being incredibly naive if you think either side will accept this as a solution for the border issue.
Its laughably simplistic

You are being incredibly naive if you think either side will accept this as a solution for the border issue.

Which side wouldn’t? Are the ROI going to start doing time consuming checks at the border like Spain do with Gibralter when they’re in a huff? Why?

Are the UK going to start doing time consuming checks at the border like Spain do with Gibralter when they’re in a huff? Why?

It’s not the C18th. We don’t need Redcoats pushing bayonets into carts of straw.

of course there will be some kind of border between Ireland and the UK , like there is now between france and the uk .

do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ? 😆

and what about people ?

Brexit was depressing at first but now it is comedy gold 😆

molgrips – Member
Deviant’s post illustrates the problem with human beings I think.

That massive bigots don’t think they are massive bigots?

do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ?

All? No. So what? Do you think all imports to the EU are tax paid? All those ebay parcels from China?

and what about people ?

What about them? If (say) someone in the UK wanted to get to Ireland they’d just walk over across fields. Once they got to Ireland illegally by walking across the fields they can’t get a legit job.

What are you worried about? Muslims? Are you fretting that someone in ISIS would get themsleves by sea or air to Ireland so they can get into the UK? If they can fly to Ireland, they can fly to the Uk. It’s a non-issue.

Would you care if someone from the ROI walked into NI today? Is it a concern for you? No? So why would it be a concern in the future?

Our neighbour is ROI not Syria. If we were bordered with (say) Mexico would you want to build a solid wall? Or would you just accept that borders are a little bit fluid?

That massive bigots don’t think they are massive bigots?

truer than you’d think. Have a read of a book called: Mistakes were made (but not by us) and it pretty much sums up this problem. Essentially we all think we’re decent people, and rationalise in our minds the bits that aren’t (decent) It’s pretty much how the man who tortures for a living can often go home to be a loving husband and father.

Once they got to Ireland illegally by walking across the fields they can’t get a legit job.

Where are “they” from? If it’s the UK they’ll be able to get a job quite legitimately.

Where are “they” from? If it’s the UK they’ll be able to get a job quite legitimately.

Good point.

do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ?

Why not, almost all tax apart from PAYE is taken on trust. Almost nobody gets investigated.

big difference between ebay parcels and car manufacturers for example .

people ? all those immigrants you want to get rid off will be able to enter the uk and work illegally , taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down .

have another 😆

that won’t change.

Nor will the level of knowledge of Anglo-Irish affairs displayed both here on this forum and in the wider population. Although a few have had to jump on a steep curve these last few weeks. It’s been entertaining reading. 🙂

Do you think all imports to the EU are tax paid? All those ebay parcels from China?

yes you can post things from china to the uk but if we had an unmanned border with china do you think things more things would be smuggled in – its not exactly the hardest question

Almost nobody gets investigated.

That isn’t true! Speaking as an ex-contractor who knows lots of contractors.

big difference between ebay parcels and car manufacturers for example .

You think BMW will smuggle cars in to the UK and sell them illgally in their showrooms without paying tax? Purely because there isn’t a man with a clipboard on the NO/ROI border? Really?

people ? all those immigrants you want to get rid off will be able to enter the uk and work illegally , taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down

A man with a clip board searching every 50th car won’t change that, and anyway you can just walk over the fields. Care to support the claim that illegal workers are “taking jobs away from uk people”?

That isn’t true! Speaking as an ex-contractor who knows lots of contractors.

I know a lot of contracotrs and I only know one person who has ever beeninvestigated. But if we can investigate contractors tax returns we can certainly stop car manufacturers importing without filling in the right forms.

yes you can post things from china to the uk but if we had an unmanned border with china do you think things more things would be smuggled in – its not exactly the hardest question

Junkyard is going to buld a wall between us and China!!! Who’s gonna pay for the wall??? China is!

A border between UK/ROI without guards and a building will cause no bother at all. We know, because we’ve already got one.

Yes cars manufacturers will try not to pay their tax if they can . Have you not heard of VW , and others cheating the system on emissions ?

if they can get away with it , they will , or at least try .

the job/low wage argument is from the Leave campaign , not me .

if they can get away with it , they will , or at least try Have you not heard of VW , and others cheating the system on emissions ?

So VW will ship thousands of cars to Ireland, then across the sea back to mainland UK and the uk Tax folks won’t notice that no duty is being paid at all by VW or that thousands of lorryloads of cars are coming from Ireland, but if a bloke stands with a clipboard by a bulding that is on the border that won’t happen.

the job/low wage argument is from the Leave campaign , not me .

Nice try you said:

taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down .

We know, because we’ve already got one.

We know the current arrangements are working quite well. The point is what replaces them.

they will declare some of it but will try to save a few £ for sure .

Leavers wont be happy with no border checks for people , that is why they voted Leave ! and one of their argument was the job/wage thing .

But if we can investigate contractors tax returns we can certainly stop car manufacturers importing without filling in the right forms.

You realise that this cuts both ways? You’d be able to import stuff into the EU without the EU knowing too. Imagine a lorryload of beef that comes from the UK to Ireland, someone puts it in packages with ‘Irish Beef’ written on – no tariff to pay. Lots of things would be pretty difficult to trace I suspect.

The people who run countries are the ones worrying about this. So if they are worried, then there’s a problem.

Once the UK has negotiated all these brilliant trade deals then the EU is going to be very keen on enforcing the border.

That is, unless every one of those trade deals ensures that imported goods comply with EU law. With the ECJ having the final say, naturally.

OoB – I preferred you when you were advocating deporting Brexies. 😉

I must say, this whole thing is going entirely as predicted.

oh, and the bus overestimated savings by 571 million per week.

Chris pleae read up on The Common Travel Area between NI and The Republic. It existed before we joined the EEC.

Whatever happens we, the UK, will not put up a physical border. HMRC already confirmed it can implement the UK Govt’s proposals.

The EU is trying to restrict the UK’s ability to sign free trade deals post Brexit and is attempting to use the Irish border as leverage to force the UK into one of its “off the shelf” arrangements.

BTW and IMO the car example above is pointless as the UK / EU will have a zero tariff deal on cars and components and also IMO the UK will agree the same with South Korea, Japan and the US

oh, and the bus overestimated savings by 571 million per week.

@bigrich remember the “brexit bill” is the EU’s view of what we already owe by havig been a member. It’s not a payment to exit but a realisation of the true cost of being a member, ie much more than £363m per week.

But you insisted that there would be nothing to pay and the house of Lords back you up.
The cost of membership also delivers benefits, leaving gives us a bill and nothing back for it.

It’s not a payment to exit but a realisation of the true cost of being a member, ie much more than £363m per week.

Is it not the very opposite+ stuff we’d pledged and voted on to do in the future?