EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The piece above about the eu considering kicking poland out is the start of thr maneuvering/softening people up to cover the future loss of membership fees from the uk IMO.

The exit bill will almost cover their next funding round entirely!

is this another thing where you brexies predict that Austria Holland France Poland are about to leave the EU and make it collapse ?

No, this is just another example of how posting anything that doesn’t state 100% allegiance to the EUtopia will get you called a “brexie”, despite repeatedly pointing out the opposite.

THM gets the same, despite consistently and overtly being pro-remain but anti-euro.

I guess some people are just too closed minded and entrenched to accept such possibilities. 💡

As it happens, this is of particular interest to me due to having Polish family, but also an excuse to use the terms “ExitPol” and “EUtopia”. 😆

seeing as Tusks words were reported virtually no where and, despite his position, are part of his own personal dispute with Kaczynski, Im not surprised it wasnt commented on here, or virtually anywhere

especially when us remoaners have had so much more juicy brexishambles tidbits to complain about like Davis hopeless start to negotiations, Gove giving away fishing rights or us offering a divorce bill we can ill-afford…

EUtopia. 😆

you are chewk and I claim my free box of frogs

well aware you claim to be antibrexit but your continued clutching at straws to prove a point has forced me to recategorise you as on of THEM!

Sbob – I never realised you weren’t a Brexy. Pretty much everything you’ve posted has seemed Brexy but if you say you’re not I’ll happily believe you.
On the other hand I can tell that THM isn’t a Brexy because of what he posts. I disagree with him on many things and I suspect we both feel slightly dirty when we agree, but EU generally good, euro generally bad, FoM generally good – he’s consistent and IMHO correct.

On FoM, the immigration policies the likes of Jamba propose with hurt the working class far more than FoM by installing a thick glass ceiling.

If I recall correctly, roughly 17m people voted Leave last year.

If everyone who voted Leave were to surrender their tax free personal allowance for one year (currently £11,500 for 2017-18) then the treasury would be able to stump up £39bn to settle our accounts with the EU.

I’m very in favour of this.

[edit] 17.4 million people, thus surrendering a total of £40.1bn. That gives enough change to pay for Dr Liam Fox’s round the world trade deal jaunt. He could even bring a friend along, too.

igm – Member

Sbob – I never realised you weren’t a Brexy.

I was a fence sitter early on, probably leaning towards leave due to my Polish side not wanting to be ruled by the Germans. 😆
I weighed up the pros and cons and voted to remain. 🙂

Pretty much everything you’ve posted has seemed Brexy but if you say you’re not I’ll happily believe you.

I don’t see the point in only discussing the pros of EU membership just to be on the winning side of the argument, and I have stated that I voted to remain almost as many times as kimbers has used the phrase “little Englanders”. 😉

I don’t see the point in only discussing the pros of EU membership just to be on the winning side of the argument,

actually we’re on the losing side (well everyone loses thanks to brexit I suppose)

actually we’re on the losing side

We?
I’m hopefully going to be eligible for at least two *EU passports, I’m European as ****; full mongrel. 😆

*don’t.

Sbob – honest mistake on my part. I’ve missed you saying you voted to remain, but hey there’s probably a lot of stuff on here I’ve missed over the years.

Perhaps I just find THM easier to engage with – and don’t take that as a derogatory statement, different people warm to different argument styles. Actually I quite enjoy arguing with Jamba too – well most of the time, occasionally he rubs me up the wrong way but that’s probably mutual

blows a kiss at IGM

(Can’t remember, what is it that we tend to disagree on?)

You’re an evil right winger, I’m a bleeding heart champagne socialist liberal lefty.

Something like that.

And you may have suggested that 26″ isn’t the future.

Takes back kiss

My libertarian sympathies make me appear RW to some, but that is not true. On most tests I am (slightly on the left edge of) centre (at best.). I do like bubbly too althoug tired of endless cheap prosecco – a Brexshit bonus 😉

I can’t see the fuss about wheels and many things bike related (is there a bike forum here?) I just ride them – having said that, you are correct, personally I am fully in the 29er camp! But have always felt that it’s horses for courses.

anyone here Grieve wiping the floor with Patterson on R4?

Brexiters have no clue what to do about ECJ rulings

just as with everything else, feeding off the lies in the press theyve created so much ignorance about the ECJ that explaining the reality to leavers is impossible

Chapeau for keeping the thread live – but really, let’s keep it factual if poss 😉

Back in March the Gov was pretty clear: the ECJ will no longer have jurisdiction over the UK after Brexit. But historic rulings will carry the same weight as those our our Supreme Court – ie, they remain part of UK law until there is time and appetite to change them (err, perhaps never?!?)

A funny definition of “no idea” – among much uncertainty, this is one of the more certain issues.

Otherwise, carry on…..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/08/judge-calls-for-clarity-on-status-of-ecj-rulings-in-uk-after-brexit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-european-court-justice-future-eu-exit-lord-neuberger-supreme-court-president-ecj-a7881836.html
Well here is a confused legal expert- well the head of the Supreme court who make the decisions- asking for clarity. Perhaps you could give him a call and let him know its all clear and sorted?

I am sure he will appreciate your self assured condescending smarm, even if it snot fully accurate facts you are delivering, as much as we do.

Judges have been told they will no longer be forced to do so[ apply ECJ rulings and case law], but can if they think it appropriate. However, the president of the supreme court, Lord Neuberger, called on the government to state its position explicitly.

Ironically its not quite as clear as you said

Perhaps you just understand it less well than the pre eminent expert in this area?

However, the president of the supreme court, Lord Neuberger, called on the government to state its position explicitly.

Hmmmm… seems to be cropping up quite a lot that phrase, doesn’t it?

Just out of interest, can anyone list a single area of this cluster**** where there is actually an explicitly stated government position? Because none spring readily to mind.

Still… I’m sure everything will be just fine……

Ironically Unsurprisingly its not quite as clear as you said

Aside from the previously stated problem over conversion of case law into statute, there is also the issue of which court(s) will oversea any new arrangements that will replace those over which ECJ is currently involved. And there will be new arrangements, yes? I’m half expecting a new court, parallel to ECJ & the already parallel court that EFTA uses… mostly accepting ECJ case law and new edicts passed down from the EU and rubber stamped by its weaker partner… something for future europhobes to rant against in their retirements.

Just out of interest, can anyone list a single area of this cluster**** where there is actually an explicitly stated government position? Because none spring readily to mind.

More of this kind of fun to come.

I reckon we’ll have another year of “revelations”, Government did not know this, the public did not know that etc, before there will be serious consideration in killing brexit. Of course there may be further complication in the tory party putting its own survival ahead of the country.

Euratom and chlorinated chicken are only the top 1mm of a very large iceberg.

Back in March the Gov was pretty clear: the ECJ will no longer have jurisdiction over the UK after Brexit. But historic rulings will carry the same weight as those our our Supreme Court – ie, they remain part of UK law until there is time and appetite to change them (err, perhaps never?!?)

A funny definition of “no idea” – among much uncertainty, this is one of the more certain issues.

if only the chief of the high court agreed with you thm
you obvs also didnt listen to the show I mentioned…

Let’s get this straight we are leaving and it will be ****, i dont want to scrap Brexit. The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

also THM surprised that youve bought into the Brexit BS that itll be simple….
as you should know law is dynamic and constantly evolving, EU law (like all law) is amended constantly and new precedents set to keep it relevant, we will we be cut n pasting future amendments?
Trade, immigration, knowledge sharing etc etc- ECJ is final arbiter
judges feel the gov is setting them up to be enemies of the people, when inevitably they have to agree with ECJ…

sounding as clueless as Owen Patterson tbh

he was proposing creating a whole new court to copy the ECJ

The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

I’ve mentioned this before, earlier on this thread, but this is one of the main divisions in the present Tory party. The hard Brexiteers see this as a gold-plated opportunity to fulfil their Thatcherite wet dreams and take a torch to workers rights, and any constraints whatsoever on business doing what the hell it likes, unfettered by the state.

The less unhinged in the Tory party know that the country most definitely didn’t vote for this. What it actually voted for a pack of lies about £350 million more per week for the NHS, less immigrants, less bendy bananas etc, etc).

So if they pursue this fundamentalist, ultra-neoliberal path of massive deregulation, NHS privatisation, and making the economy ‘more competitive’ (read: shredding workers rights, and turning the country into a tax haven), which looks increasingly likely given the people involved, then there will be hell to pay when people realise the true degree to which they’ve been conned when they voted to ‘Take Back Control’.

Interestnig article my Matthew D’Ancona about present attitudes within the Tory Party. For it now looks like Brexit will purely come down to serving the interests of th Tory party, and to hell with the rest of us!

I love the idea that Mays government will release position papers on the main issues that need to be settled before talks on future relationships can be started in a few weeks. WTF have they been doing if they don’t even have an idea what they want by now?

patterson & grieve had 2 very different positions earlier

at least we have the wisdom of strong & stable May + early GE Davis in control 😉

WTF have they been doing if they don’t even have an idea what they want by now?

Bickering with each other, and jockeying for position for the upcoming leadership election, in the current power vacuum

Have there been any MPs that have turned remain since the referendum?
I’ve always assumed big business and the banks held the real power in this country but from what I see they are mainly pro eu.
Why are they suddenly being ignored?

500+ MPs are remainers

The opportunity for a large part of the UK population to be taught a life changing lesson on how the political class of this country operates can not be missed.

The repercussions will be felt long after they are all dead, unfortunately.
Part of the reason why I am not as pro-EU as most of STW is due to what will happen in the longer term, which has never really been discussed, but then I guess it’s impossible to predict, so unsurprising.
I’ve tried to point out before that the EU is still a group of individual countries and not the harmonious collective that is generally referred to on here, with little success, but then it seems that no one wants to talk about that.
I’ll be watching what happens in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary et cetera with interest, it is very much proof that the EU is a political union heading towards a superstate, much to the contrary of what was stated at the beginning of this thread.

Why are they suddenly being ignored?

Because the lunatics have taken over the asylum. The hard right, totally hatstand, rabidly anti-EU tail of the Tory party is now wagging the predominantly moderate, pro EU, pro business dog.

And on the benches opposite all the predominantly pro EU MP’s are similarly being ‘led’ by a very anti-EU faction. Who are now emboldened by a less-than-ctastrophic election result, and also touting the ‘Will of the People’ line. So there’s no refuge there either

Basically, we’re all ****ed!

I’ve tried to point out before that the EU is still a group of individual countries and not the harmonious collective that is generally referred to on here, with little success, but then it seems that no one wants to talk about that.
I’ll be watching what happens in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary et cetera with interest, it is very much proof that the EU is a political union heading towards a superstate, much to the contrary of what was stated at the beginning of this thread.

please some evidence of this?

I think everyone is aware that the EU is made up of different countries, fortunately cooperation is beneficial to everyone!

Kimbers – you are correct it is very dynamic and will change between now and Brexshit

Hence like the rest of us Neuberger is living with uncertainty. The Gov has published one position paper on the future role of the ECJ last month – the main ambiguity seems to be at which point will the ECJ jurisdiction will end and if Gove’s reaction is to be believed, whether the ECJ will in fact still have some role after all (ie, not a total break) – hardly scope for froth and panic.

Back in Jan, May laid out a clear argument that there would be a clean break. Like most things, I would expect this to be subject to seem negotiation and possible compromise. We have seen some softening already, hence Neugerger’s comments on still needing 100% clarity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Welcome to the world we live in…..mine’s a skinny latte please

[of course as always, Neuberger’s comments are more nuanced and less contraversial than the headlines would suggest. Quelle surprise!]

Binners if you were correct, Hammond would be toast by now!

Still he seems to be setting the agenda more than the nutters

Hurty – I thought the whole point is that NOBODY is setting the agenda. Because there is no agenda.

May is completely powerless. The Tory party is totally rudderless. Just policy paralysis. And in this vacuum it’s just the more extreme factions shouting at each other and making it up as they go along, to be contradicted by the other lot the very next day. While anyone with any sense looks on aghast while keeping their heads down

All this while the country drifts towards the cliff edge. The totally disconnected, vainglorious self-indulgence of this bunch of cretins absolutely beggers belief. We’ve been reduced to an international laughing stock, while they all play their silly little schoolboy parlour games.

It’s an absolute tragedy!

But, as usual, the people bringing about this tragedy will walk away from the wreckage unscathed (like Dave – presently globe-trotting at 100 grand a speech!), insulated as they are by the wealth and power, leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab

Same old, same old….

With the general lack of drive and movement in the UK’s negotiating position, the lack of a rudder in the regime current in power is not particularly meaningful either way. Rudders only work when you’re moving.

Reality versus rhetoric binners – you decide

There is an argument made on STW that we are all sheep led by the media. I challenged Cougar on this over the weekend. However, this thread suggest that he was correct and I was wrong. I have indeed given people too much credit to make their own informed decisions.

Posting newspaper headlines adds little value. All we get is a distorted tag line on the same piece of news. Yes we all know that there are the

Rabid loonies – obvious
Slightly less rabid loonies – the Brexshit Bugle having transitioned from above recently
The slightly less rabid moaners – FT, poss Indy
Moderately rabid remoaners – Guardian
Off the scale looney remainer – Gideon’s Gobshite

Most of the above make fine froth

Where’s the Times?

And are you suggesting nobody walks the centre ground?

Incidentally plenty of pro-Brexit pieces in the Guardian. They are a little conflicted, as are many broad church organisations.

Having said the above Martin Sandbu’s analysis in today’s FT is worth reading

Not sure IGM. Long time since I read it for two reasons

1. Murdoch
2 I am not clever enough to do their cryptic crossword.

What do you reckon?

Headlines – no
Text – possibly but with remain tilt. See ^