They would have lost this won comfortably if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message

That doesn’t add up at all.

That doesn’t add up at all.

I have already explained my thinking, care to elaborate on yours?

Frankly it is a disgrace that labour are allowing this con job, on those they are meant to represent, to continue unchallenged. Especially when it is so easy to challenge, it is either sheer incompetence or deliberate, but either way it is a dereliction of labour principles.

You’ve just summed up my feelings about Labour in three lines, MSP.

as you are just making it up

I’m really not. The big unanswered question from the EU elections was whether the labour swing to the remain parties would persist in a general election, or if the labour remainers would come back to ensure the brexit party was defeated? Whilst this hasn’t fully answered that, it’s a big indicator that the latter is the case. And why wouldn’t it be? Seeing as the remain vote is largely based in the educated middle classes, people who are more likely to vote with their heads than their hearts, it stands to reason that they’re not going to vote in a way which ensures the brexit party wins.

Frankly it is a disgrace that labour are allowing this con job, on those they are meant to represent, to continue unchallenged.

Couple of points, firstly labour policy may be unpopular, but it’s not a con job. It’s a perfectly reasonable position to take the middle ground and attempt to unite people around issues which aren’t brexit. Secondly, of all single issue policies that any political party has adopted, I know of none other which has been challenged and tested as much as labour’s policy on brexit. It’s become a national obsession, to the detriment of everything else. At least it has among those who are politically engaged, however out in the real world, most people don’t care about the minutiae of policy and will continue voting on broad bush issues as they always have.

It’s true that in FPTP voting, many “remain” people will return to Labour to defeat right wing candidates, despite Labour’s Brexit policy.

But, why wouldn’t “leave” Labour voters return to Labour to defeat right wing candidates, if it was staunchly against Brexit but for left wing policies?

Also, Labour needs more voters, not just to win back those of us that voted for them in 2017. How does it win over previously Conservative voters shocked at what their “party of business” has become? How does it win over people who voted LibDem in the last few elections? Any plans for winning seats off the SNP, as England drags Scotland out with it? How about all those new voters that need something to grab them and bring them into the voting booth?

[ this Leave/Remain split is nonsense by the way… plenty of people who voted Leave want the current shit show stopped, and plenty of people who voted Remain now think we must carry on with the boondoggle … just put forward the policy you think is best for Britain ]

So labour should not attempt to represent the working class who voted for brexit? simply abandom them to others? 30+% of labour MPs even tho remainers by and large donot think the party shoud abandomn the millions of brexit voting labour voters

They should not abandon the working class, no, but they are, by doubling down on the “jobs first Brexit” bullshit, while Brexit continues to result in the loss of higher paid working class jobs.

dazh

Subscriber
A very significant win for labour, and a sign that they can’t abandon leave voters in these marginals. In the end it shows that in these seats their remain voters will ultimately bite the bullet and vote tactically to prevent the Brexit party winning. They would have lost this if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message.

They scraped it by 700 votes.

It was a 60% leave seat, the majority of labour voters (nationally at least) backed remain, labour saw an almost 20% fall in vote share

If the Tories were half way competent with Brexit, tbp wouldn’t exist & Labour would be in big trouble.

This is a condemnation of the Tories rather than a. Endorsement of labours Brexit strategy.

labour are backing the working class by ‘running down’ skilled manufacturing ?

Labour should’ve become the remain party once jlr/nissan etc started announcing job losses late last year, from that point on they’ve had no excuses.

They’ve been hammered in the last 2 national elections & seen a 17% vote drop in this local

Their strategy isn’t working electorally & its doing nothing to protect jobs.

All this is mute anyway… if we have a snap General Election before we Leave, Labour will fall behind offering some way for “the people” to speak again about Brexit. The momentum behind that will increase once we have a new Tory Leader and another Brexit deadline whooshes over the country’s head. It’s just the time being wasted right now, when the Tories are on the ropes, that’s so frustrating.

They scraped it by 700 votes.

It’s significant not for the size of the majority (which has slightly increase btw), but for the fact that they won at all when the ominous signs from the EU elections were that they would lose on account of remainers deserting them for the libdems and greens. They did lose some to the libdems it appears, but not enough to lose the seat.

The euros indicated that the vote of both main parties suffered equally. This byelection suggests that in a general election much of the labour vote will come back whereas the tories won’t. Difficult to tell from one byelection of course but in the end this will come down to how much of the vote share the main parties will lose, and at the moment it looks like the tories will lose a lot more than labour.

All this is mute anyway

Hang on, you’ve spent the last few weeks saying with some certainty that labour was going to lose it’s remain vote to the libdems and the greens if it didn’t swing behind a stop brexit policy. The EU elections supported that and you and others weren’t exactly shy about pointing that out. Yet now there is evidence in the other direction, you say it’s not important?

They scraped it by 700 votes.

They scraped it by 607 votes in 2017. So they increased their majority, despite their MP leaving in disgrace, in one of the strongest Leave areas in the whole country.

Yet now there is evidence in the other direction, you say it’s not important?

It’s important, and maddening, and politically damaging, that Corbyn and his advisors will have to be dragged kicking and screaming towards the policy… and sickening that people still think this is because they are being politically smart by trying to play both sides, when it seems obvious that it is simply because they oppose that policy and want Brexit to happen.

Edit – I think I missunderstood your post – the by-election result isn’t unimportant, and I’m not dismissing it, and I think that much of your analysis is correct (for this seat and some others like it, that is a 17% fall in Labour share of the vote could still win them this kind of Brexit Party target seat as the Conservatives lose an even greater share). I was saying that all this arguing about the Labour party’s position is likely to be a waste of our time, as it will most likely move to fully supporting a referendum including a remain option, if we have a snap election.

It’s significant not for the size of the majority (which has slightly increase btw), but for the fact that they won at all when the ominous signs from the EU elections were that they would lose on account of remainers deserting them for the libdems and greens. They did lose some to the libdems it appears, but not enough to lose the seat.

The euros indicated that the vote of both main parties suffered equally. This byelection suggests that in a general election much of the labour vote will come back whereas the tories won’t. Difficult to tell from one byelection of course but in the end this will come down to how much of the vote share the main parties will lose, and at the moment it looks like the tories will lose a lot more than labour.

Counting on the collapse of the Tories isnt a strategy

at the moment its a 3 way fight between Labour, a party with no manifesto & a party with no leader!

Labour should be romping home, instead they are losing vote share

if TBP or the Tories were to sort themselves out, it will be another wasted 4 years of opposition for them

It’s hard to argue against Kimbers post up there ^^^.

Labour should be ahead of the tories and are wasting the greatest opportunity in a lifetime to put some daylight between them and the tories.

Nonetheless, well done Labour. I expected TBP to romp home in Peterborough. The result has got Brexiteers in quite a froth this morning, seeing as most Brexiteers were expecting a sizeable majority.

Bearing in mind the low turnout actually increasing their majority is impressive.

I’m just happy the Brexit Party didn’t get in.

I bet NF is really hacked off today 🙂 ha ha.

The ford plant closure is the perfect opportunity for Labour to move it’s position on brexit now. It can say ‘the current fiasco isn’t providing a ‘jobs first brexit’ therefore we advocate Norway style future trading and a vote on the presented deal’ job done.

Brexit party in “totally not racist at all” shocker.

Brexit Party insider blames Peterborough loss on ‘Pakistani vote’

Is the opposition (Labour supposedly) able/allowed to call a no confidence & push things towards a general election, or does the current Tory government have to initiate it?

Assuming parliament is sitting, the official opposition can call a no confidence vote… they’d need 6 Conservative/DUP MPs to back it (or 11 abstain) and every single other MP to back it (less likely than you’d at first expect). Realistically, you’d need 30 or more Conservatives to abstain.

[ don’t go nuts if my numbers are one or two out ]

Looks like it’s still Plan A from Magic Grandad… red unicorns, comrades

Wanting a general election is not a policy … the opposition should always be trying to get into power … but then, what policy would Labour enact as regards Brexit if it wins a general election?!? Around and round again we go again… he’ll have to shift to where most of the rest of the party is eventually, no?

Tick. Tock.

Thanks kelvin, so it still needs overall numbers to see it through. binners, that’s what prompted my post. It was just that I recalled months ago some other party saying it was down to the official opposition to get the ball rolling.

Yeah, and, realistically, plenty of the independents in parliament would block a no confidence vote, hence needing so many Conservatives/DUP to withdraw their support for the government, despite having a majority of only about 10. Might happen if no deal is upon us, but I seriously doubt it.

Corbyns daily demands for a general election are like me demanding world peace. Utterly pointless.

What it has led to is the Tory’s planning some extremely dodgy, constitutionally-dubious political chicanery to make sure it doesn’t happen, even once they’ve decided which unhinged Brexiteer they’re going to shoe-horn into number 10

The Brexiteers total contempt for democracy really is getting pretty scary

“It would be illegal… it would be unconstitutional and it would be undemocratic”@RoryStewartUK reacts to Dominic Raab saying he could prorogue Parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit #Peston pic.twitter.com/2HhpQ2ROwe

— Peston (@itvpeston) June 5, 2019

The Brexiteers total contempt for democracy really is getting pretty scary

That’s probably the most ironic statement I’ve ever read. (contextually you don’t mean voters perhaps?)

(p.s I seee your semi-normal Tory example Rory Stewart is wanting to bring in National Citizens Service for young people – you know those without a decent future, funding and opportunity etc… But yeah you keep going on about Magic Grandad.)

It looks like Labour with Jeremy Corbyn will gain from the fight between Conservative & Brexit Party if the pattern continues like those at Peterborough.
If the pattern continues then Corbyn will be next PM after the next GE, then you will have Labour in charge of Brexit or No-Brexit … good luck to them.

p/s: I just noticed the term “magic grandad” so funny 🤣

Thing is that actually we are at war.

One hopes it is, and remains, a cold war, especially at its conclusion, but it is a war nonetheless.

The reason that it is a War lies in the starting positions of the two principal belligerents –

House of YorkLeave – No Deal, No Problem, **** the EU
House of LancasterRemain – Remain unto the breach, dear Friends.

This is a Cousin’s War that has yet to reach a body count above the one in Batley & Spen, and would do well to remain as civilised.

But let’s not kid ourselves that there is a middle ground now.

There is momentum on either side, regardless of the inertia in the middle – there is one side or the other – so which is it?

–

Latest yougov poll has Theresa May being more popular than Corbyn. And that’s after she has resigned!

Thing is that actually we are at war.

No, we’re really not. The obsessive on both sides of this issue would like there to be one, the rest of us want it sorted one way or the other so we can think about other things.

But let’s not kid ourselves that there is a middle ground now.

Evidence for that?

the rest of us want it sorted one way or the other so we can think about other things

Agreed. That’s probably more than half the country falling under that description. Now… how to sort it…?

Woman on the radio yesterday saying that she voted Brexit party because Theresa May was rubbish.

a) She’s resigned, so that’s not much of an argument, and
b) Farage is a total unknown.

‘kin hell can you imagine if Corbyn had taken cocaine? Go on Rory you tell him he’s a good lad for it.

It’s apparently refreshing honesty, and opens up debate.

Go **** yourselves.

Latest yougov poll has Theresa May being more popular than Corbyn. And that’s after she has resigned!

Just looked at the detail on those stats. So nearly all Tories, and Brexit party supports don’t like Corbyn.

That’s why.

And then look again further down the list. Leavers too.

the rest of us want it sorted one way or the other so we can think about other things

Well your gonna be disappointed; f we leave it’s a decade or more of divisive all consuming negotiations as we try to replace what we are tearing up

If we stay you’ll have farage shrieking ‘betrayal’ for the next decade

You’ll still get the outraged man-frog shrieking if we leave with a deal so I’d be prepared to put up with it if it meant we stay in.

Farage has sent letters to senior tories demanding a say in negociations.

Wait, what? His only policy is hard WTO brexit… What’s there to negociate?

Also (stolen from another forum
Isn’t this an EU MEP meddling in affairs of the British government. The very thing Nigel is campaigning against ?

Farage has sent letters to senior tories demanding a say in negociations.

Would the lazy **** turn up?

Would the lazy **** turn up?

Maybe once or twice for a photo opportunity/video rant which can be stuck on youtube.