How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths? We have a voice in the EU but it’s only one voice. We are allowed to leave now but that’s not guaranteed in the future. We have a direct vote over our own government and I think it’s safer that way. We’re all european at the moment and it needs to keep expanding to bring fresh consumers, I’d rather not be a part of that.
History is difficult, it only really works as a flawed example but the Napoleonic wars might be relevant in this discussion. Bit short of time now and can’t really engage with the discussion. I apologise for that.

Poldarn, what’s prompted you to start posting after 8 years absence?

Well spotted. We were discussing this earlier today.

The EU keep talking about having an EU army

Do they? Serious question.

Del, I have an Android phone and randomly chooses stories from the Web. I commented on a droopy chain issue before this and then saw this thread. Nothing nefarious.

Poldarn, these all seem like things that our government need to fix. Unless they improve pay and training we will still need to get NHS staff from somewhere else, revamping immigration to only let people in who are just like us? That sounds a bit dangerous to me, oh don’t like the way they look/think so they can’t come in…..🙄 And thinking the deals we negotiate with countries will be ethical and righteous after we leave the EU, not going to happen on the real world.
We will just end up still doing all the things you don’t like but without getting any of the benefits of being in the EU.

So you’re worried about the EU getting more right wing, think I’d worry about that a bit closer to home first.

Pondo, I’m ex military and used to work for a defence company that supplies EU countries. The defence industry is seeing a shift from NATO to European. Our armed forces make up is discussed as being part of an integrated force with the EU rather than a standalone balanced force. I can but won’t go into actual detail.

Akira, I’ve got it ok? It’s easy to snipe and be dismissive. I know there are lots of positives to being in the EU.

No worries Poldarn, never very sure if people are being totally serious these days. Friend on Facebook had someone posting about how the UN are harvesting organs from war zones especially regions where they don’t drink…..,,🙄

I can but won’t go into actual detail.

The argument for leave benefits in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen.

And if I’ve missed any questions from anyone I apologise. Busy with life stuff and just wanted to add a bit of balance. There are good people on both sides of the argument and it’s a tragedy that it has come down to two sides bitterly opposed to each other. The way that the referendum was run and then managed is criminal – the issues are real but it shouldn’t have ended up like this.

The defence industry is seeing a shift from NATO to European.

True, and there are many good reasons for this, as I’m sure you are aware.

Our armed forces make up is discussed as being part of an integrated force with the EU rather than a standalone balanced force.

Mostly with EU countries, rather the EU. France especially. We’re still heavily reliant on partnerships with the USA as well. Most operations involve more than one country, it’s been that way since, well, you could argue… D-day.

Pondo, cherry picking lines? I’ve given lots of reasons and you pick up that single line?
I absolutely cannot go into the subject of defence. Maybe you would and maybe others would do to score points but I just won’t. Have my other reasons not given you enough to criticise?

We have a direct vote over our own government and I think it’s safer that way.

No, we have a vote for our MP, who may have no say at all in who makes up our government. So, not only don’t we have a direct vote, but the representative we elect might not get a say in it anyway. Who is picking our next PM?

Kelvin, I’ll accept that difference and have seen that difference in bilateral agreements. The discussions around an EU army are also a thing though and Russia, China, even the US have reacted.

Kelvin, you’re describing a change of leader without a general election. The new tory leader will be a tory.

Kelvin, and if we have such as disconnect with our own government then how do you see us having a say on EU matters?

Absolute fantasy about “EU Army” entirely made up by the Brexiteers to foster fear – I’ve spent 20 years in the defence sector and working at a strategic level with MOD and the military and the notion that any EU nation is prepared to cede its sovereign operational capability to another. What is likely to happen, particularly a Trump attempt to undermine NATO is we’ll see the EU undertake more joint operations, in much that same way that the UK command UNFORCYP – the UN peace-keeping operation in Cyprus. It would be perfectly natural for EU members to form a ‘defence force’ which draws on individual nations capabilities as well as well as developing joint training / doctrine to help protect the EU’s eastern border. Having a collective defence capability like NATO article 5 is to be expected.

https://euobserver.com/foreign/143311

https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1NG0K8

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html

Quite easy to have researched that yourself.
(apologies for poor links, trying to sort food)

[mod edit: I think I’ve cleaned those up for you]

From those links…

“Faced by Russia, which is on our borders and which has shown that it can be threatening… we need to have a Europe that can better defend itself by itself, without depending solely on the United States.”

A number of proposals have been put on the table for how EU nations could cooperate more closely on defence. The European Commission says closer defence cooperation “is not about creating an EU army”.

good summary here of how the Tory leadership have failed so utterly to confront the realities of Brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/8d7d7e0e-8719-11e9-a028-86cea8523dc2

I can’t go into the detail of how I know, but some of you are underestimating the current level of integration of EU armed forces. Yes they are all independant national forces but they train together and there’s a whole command structure that means that if ever push comes to shove they will all work as one and very efficiently at that.

On the subject of an “EU army,” even if we assume it to be true, I’d say:

1) So what? Why is that a bad thing?

2) We’d have the power of veto as an EU member state to prevent it happening if we so desired.

3) Would we rather be included in such a thing or have it as a potential enemy on our doorstep? If the EU were assembling a super-army, surely this is one of the most compelling reasons there is not to leave?

but they train together and there’s a whole command structure

Yes, no country operates alone in military operations (training or active) much, it’s been this way for longer than any of us have been alive. The only shift has been away from using NATO or UN structures (arguably the US started this shift due to frustrations with key countries in both groupings being far less hawkish than them).

It turns out that if you look at enough stuff that’s in the public domaine you get an idea of how European nations have extensive criss-crossing agreements in place whilst on the ground there are regular internation exercises, and continuous cooperation and planning. Google is you friend if you want to kno wmore

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/09/07/france-uk-strengthen-military-relations-but-future-fighter-jet-cooperation-not-yet-there/

https://www.france-allemagne.fr/Cooperation-franco-allemande-en-1471.html

https://www.rtl.be/info/monde/international/trident-juncture-18-voici-le-plus-grand-exercice-militaire-de-l-otan-depuis-la-fin-de-la-guerre-froide-1070707.aspx

https://it.ambafrance.org/Cooperation-entre-tireurs-d-elite-militaires-francais-et-italiens

@poldarn In case you missed it,

What [British] values are they?

Daughters being told how to dress… You voted leave because you don’t like brown people, amirite?

Cougar, no, that’s literally the opposite of my views. That you’re attacking my person rather than my arguments is pretty poor and shows you’ve not read my previous posts.

All, will try and catch up tomorrow. I’m not ignoring anyone, just other stuff to do.

How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths?

Then the EU needs all the rationalising voices it can, surely? The member states have the power of veto over important stuff so if right wing countries tried to do something unpalatable it’d get vetoed. That’s why the EU is important – it ties countries together via economics, so any wannabe dictator would have to (ahem) leave in order to do anything drastic, and s/he then would be acting alone, it wouldn’t be the EU.

Without the EU any right wing countries would be free to form an alliance to do bad stuff. This has happened before of course and is one of the founding principles of the European integration movement. As we all know.

How about if the feelings in Europe change and it goes down more right wing paths? We have a voice in the EU but it’s only one voice veto.

FIFY.
So, what was it that prompted you to post after 8 years absence?

Meanwhile 90M plus spent on consultants by the gov on Brexit.

Poldarn, you have given some things YOU don’t like about the EU and things you think they should be doing however, to ask again
“What legitimate issues do people have where the cause is related to being in the EU?”

This means things the UK government could not control or address while being in the EU. I don’t believe any of the things you mention are issues affecting the average persons life. Even the racist British values stuff could be satisfied by the government if it wanted to (which is doesn’t as the even crap parties like the tories are not that racist)

Labour win in perterburough. Brexit party candidate make sracist statements. Maybe the people are not so daft. thats a 60% leave seat.

I’d attribute “the people” all the possible brexiter insults. Only 4000 or so voted Lib Dem and just over 1000 voted green. All the rest, about 28 000, voted for leave parties. Which is perhaps not surprising in a 60% leave seat.

And let’s face it, the Brexit party which has only existed for a few weeks nearly beat Labour in Peterborough.

All this makes a no deal Brexit more probable IMO.

A very significant win for labour, and a sign that they can’t abandon leave voters in these marginals. In the end it shows that in these seats their remain voters will ultimately bite the bullet and vote tactically to prevent the Brexit party winning. They would have lost this if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message.

They would have lost this won comfortably if they had swung fully behind a stop brexit message

Care to elaborate why or are we just doing panto style ‘oh no they didn’t’ level of debate now?

Point of order. the brexit party ( which is not a party) has been in existence for 3 years.

Well, my claim is as detailed as yours, but I will anyway.

Trump created an open goal when he let slip that the NHS would be a victim of a US trade deal. Everyone with half a brain knew that anyway, labour should have been campaigning on the truth for the past 2 or 3 years.

to quote myself from the other thread

time for labour to stop pandering to the false brexit narrative, and start winning the real arguments. That farage and the tories will sell of the NHS to American insurance companies, bring in privatisation to education, cut taxes for the wealthiest and inact even more damaging austerity and cuts onto the poorest, all the while under a backdrop of jobs lost to brexit.

This isn’t a difficult war to win, but it has to be fought and not just capitulated in fear. It is about time labour looked to its guiding principles and started representing the people they claim to represent and not just enabling the alt-right propagandists.

Care to elaborate why or are we just doing panto style ‘oh no they didn’t’ level of debate now?

No elaboration is possible as you are just making it up just the same as people saying going for a no Brexit would have got more votes. You are just making up that the result is because of something you want to be reality.
If the no brexit votes went to Lib Dems and Greens then it would be a good guess to suggest that Labour could have got some of those votes but lost a whole load of other votes to Brexit party.

Also need to remember this was not exactly a Labour safe seat as they only beat the Conservatives by a few hundred votes in 2017. Same sort of marginal win but against a different party.