Bit OT but being there is such a broad level of knowledge on the forum wondered if anyone had any advice….

Mrs Wharfedale has been given notice of 30 day consultation for redundancy. 2 people 1 job. The wife has been there much longer than the other guy and is more qualified BUT is 12 weeks pregnant. Employer doesn’t know this yet.

So does she tell them about the pregnancy or hold off until after the consultation period. I know they can’t use it in their decision but this is a medium sized PLC we’re talking about, they hire a team of employment lawyers for this kind of thing!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Does she want to stay? If she says she’s preggers, they’ll more than likely NOT let her go I reckon.

If she’s genuinely better qualified for the job, they surely wouldn’t dare to make her redundant if they know she’s pregnant – she’d take them to the cleaners at a tribunal.

On the other hand, how does she feel about going back to work after maternity? If there’s a decent voluntary settlement to be negotiated then maybe consider that?

She wants to stay.

Best to own up. It can be to her advantage either way. Negotiate redundancy and maternaty if she wants to go, or scare them into not getting rid of her if she doesn’t.

Settlement will be the minimum required by law. No negotiation. She’s happy to go back to work after maternity leave.

There’s been few similar threads on this so may be worth a search. Your wife is not obliged to disclose her pregnancy and ethical issues aside, experience [not mine but friends] would suggest that she does not do so until the outcome of the consultation and redundancy process is known.

Clearly how she proceeds depends on a range of stuff like: does she still want the job and intend to work after the birth of your child?, her relationship with her employer – there are pros and cons to being open about your situation depending on your personal relationship and how the employer has handled similar issues in the past; and practical stuff – if she’s starting to show or needs time off etc, then you will need to think about how you handle that.

Annoyingly, regardless of the legal and moral issues that go with dealing with pregnant women in the workplace it’s a fact of life that employers are often still in the dark ages on stuff like this, and if it’s the pennies they are counting then a pregnant women will get pushed out regardless of her skills, competence and experience in relation to the other bloke (or not pregnant) woman.

Congratulations by the way!

& no doubt TJ will be along any second with more informed advice … 😉

and if it’s the pennies they are counting then a pregnant women will get pushed out regardless of her skills, competence and experience in relation to the other bloke (or not pregnant) woman.

They can try…but they will lose at tribunal.

My wife recently found herself in a not disimilar situation when negotiating her return from maternity: her manager reneged on a promise to allow her to work part time – as soon as she said she felt she was being bullied, HR were falling over themselves to reach a solution.

My wife recently found herself in a not disimilar situation when negotiating her return from maternity: her manager reneged on a promise to allow her to work part time – as soon as she said she felt she was being bullied, HR were falling over themselves to reach a solution.

Hurray! maybe there is hope after all then.

When I worked for a city council, I saw a pregnant woman’s post be “protected” and the guy got booted out. I think most employers will bend the rules in favour of a pregnant woman because they’re so frightened of getting it wrong.

A completely non-professional opinion, but if she’s confident of surviving the consultation, and she wants to stay, then why give them a reason to think she might not be the best person to keep?

They can try…but they will lose at tribunal.

WOuldn’t bet on it. It’ll depend on how well they followed their own redundancy criteria and how it’s been skewed. EMployers are a lot sharper now than they were and whilst still in the dark ages from an attitude point of view are much more clever at justifying any decision made.

My wife got made redundant 3 months after going back to work afte rher second pregnancy, it’s no protection. Personally I’m not sure I would tell her employers at this stage if she doesn’t have to. Let the process run and at least you know where she stands. Plus if it’s her, letting them know after they’ve made the decision may seriously wrong foot them and give you some room for negotiation over exit packages. Statutory redundancy is an insult tbh.

(Possibly more important than the money angle).
As long as your wife has no contact with anything likely to affect her or the foetus health then keep quiet. Otherwise you need to let them know so they can make H&S adjustments to her work.

Congratulations to you.
Having been through this several times you cannot underestimate the emotional side of this type of issue

1 – If you keep quiet until it becomes too much, this can lead to bad feeling on the employers part as they may feel you didn’t trust them and then an ongoing issue when she does return.
2 – Be open as soon as possible; yes you may well win at a tribunal but as mentioned before not a given, the HR people may be on the ball and so no slipups can be inferred to give you the advantage. Also taking someone to tribunal at such a time is only going to add to the stress.
Personally I have a negative view of the majority of UK employers in this area os would opt for a tactical silence at this stage.

Count yourself lucky, my 8 months pregnant wife works for Mouchel Group.

:-/

better qualified doesnt mean better at the job

Don’t think length of service can be used as a selection criteria any more either.

First off – congratulations to you both 😀

Most initial reactions are that a pregnancy would work against a women in this situation but in my experience it is the opposite aqnd it is better to disclose than not.

In her favour not only will her company have to take additional legal advice (more effort for management!!) there is a staff moral issue involved as well – no one likes to see something like this happen to someone who is in a vulnerable position.

better qualified doesnt mean better at the job

That’s true, but IIRC, they do have to come up with some measurable criteria that reflect the requirements of the post.

Edited to add: don’t underestimate the value of fighting your corner. My wife was given 3 pages of reasons why they couldn’t agree to part-time work. She refuted every single one of them – which told the employer that she wasn’t stupid, wasn’t going away, and wasn’t going to be messed about by an HR lackey.

If she doesn’t tell them she’s pregnant before she goes through the consultation, and she is subsequently made redundant, then you can’t argue that her pregnancy was one of the (illegal) factors that caused them to make her redundant. In effect, you make it easier for them to make her redundant.

If they know she is pregnant before the consultation, they are going to have to be very careful what they do.

She still could lose her job – I am dead against the idea that just because someone is pregnant therefore they should be safe from redundancy – but the risk of not getting it 100% right in the consultation process leaves them far more exposed in a tribunal; there is no limit to how much they could get sued for. That risk often means companies don’t go anywhere near pregnant women in redundancy cases, but it’s by no means a dead cert they won’t.

That’s true, but IIRC, they do have to come up with some measurable criteria that reflect the requirements of the post.

They will almost certainly have that – measurement against competencies, attendance, results against targets, lateness etc. Not hard to have.

IF I was in your position I would be seeking the advice of a good employment lawyer as they would tell you what you need to know and will guide you through the options.

What geetee siad in the main

I think telling them will give her more protection not less as they will tread very carefully
Does she think they will let her go because he is pregnant ? If so dont tell but telling will , on balance, give more protection

they can use whatever they like as long as it is fair* including length of service
* this may mean just picking things the other person has/is better at than your wife does not but I doubt anyone would risk that with someone pregnant. they may also make a combined role as they restructure that the other person is better suited to.
They may merge say HR and training and give 80% of the new roles responsibilities as HR hence favouring the HR person. This is fine as well as it is still objective but unfair.

Forget about experience, pregnnant, male or female, or any sub grouping.

Most important question the boses ask does the face fit, and will they do as we say.

Tricky one.

Personally I would tell them. It might offer some protection and will almost certainly mean that if they do make her redundant they will muck up the process making it an unfair dismissal and giving you ammunition to negotiate a compromise agreement ie money to shut up and go away.

New ACAS/EHRC guidance was released on this recently. You’ll probably benefit from giving this the once over;

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/here-for-business/guidance-for-small-and-medium-size-businesses/managing-redundancy-for-pregnant-employees-and-those-on-maternity-leave/

PS. Congratulations!!

Why would the employer almost certainly muck things up TJ?

There is nothing wrong in making a pregnant woman’s job redundant – perfectly within the law. The only thing that would be wrong would be making the pregnancy the reason for the decision – so most employers avoid the situation by keeping them on, irrespective of whether or not they are the best person for the job.

My wife lost her job when pregnant but her stupid boss said ‘well you’ll be leaving anyway’ and allowed it to be put in writing. Needless to say my wife won some damages.

Scamper – Member

Why would the employer almost certainly muck things up TJ?

Cos IMO / IME HR are almost always incompetent and make a mess of redundancies leaving them open to claims of unfair dismissal. Its especially complex to make a pregnant woman redundant fairly. Not difficult if you are competent mind you.

I have dealt with a fair few as has MrsTJ. Personally I got 7 months wages and £7000 when actually entitled to £400 and a months wages as the incompetent HR made such a mess of the situation. Seen a good few others like this as well

MF = there is a lot more than simply basing the decision on the pregnancy that would make it unfair. Did they have equal access to information? to alternative posts? ect etc

TJ – I know. I have direct experience of it, having dealt with solicitors and my wife’s (ex) employers.

I’d tell them for the reasons aboveand also If they get rid and then are told that in a month or 2 your wife is going on maternity leave it may cause unnecessary friction between your wife and employer as they have just let someone go who requires no training to cover your wife maternity leave. It may also mean that they could extend the time the other guy has which could also extend his service and increase his pay out.

Cos IMO / IME HR are almost always incompetent and make a mess of redundancies leaving them open to claims of unfair dismissal.

I worked as a consultant advising companies on how to manage redundancy and restructuring situations for three years and in my experience it was almost always the line managers that screwed things up but HR took the blame.

but HR took the blame.

And quite rightly so, given the amazing number of things HR depts seem to screw up over the course of the average person’s employment 😆

Firstly thanks for the congratulations! Can’t wait for the new addition. 3 year old Brother to be is so excited not sure he can wait another 6 months….

Thanks a lot for the advice always appreciated, we’ve told the employer today. Will post up when we know more.

Actually muggomagic makes a good point.

So they are looking to reduce costs – well by virture that Mrs Wharfedale will go on to maternity pay will do that for them, plus the other person can cover for that period. Its a win win – the company don’t have to recruit to cover the maternity period and save significantly on the wages bill.

They can review their options upon her return.

In a hypothetical situation I can imagine a manager would be fairly vexed if after making a two into one redundancy decision the chosen one announced that she was preggo and would be taking a year off.

Because if they had known they may be lobbying HR to avoid making one of the roles redundant or doing something clever with maternity cover. After all they’re going to need to be employing 2 people for a year (with one on maternity) anyway and it makes more sense that the person in work is familiar with the role rather than offering a new temp contract to cover maternity.

And then in 18 months who knows what the world will be like etc etc.

So if the manager did only find out after, the preggo one will get treated exactly within all the rules but definitely won’t be the most popular and will get passed over for opportunities, pay rises etc when they are back and will be first out the next time an opportunity arises.