would people pleading for the rule of law, be arguing thus if these jihadists had been killed whilst trying to kill Aylan in kobani?

What if they were killed while trying to kill Donald Duck in Disneyland Paris?

Thats how democracy works. Awkward isn’t it? So lets just dispense with the whole democratic process, do it anyway,

Afraid that’s how parliament is setup, there is no requirement for the government (that were voted in democratically) to go to the house for approval.

I’m struggling to see why anyone is surprised by any of this, there has been plenty of stuff in the papers previously (e.g. that Guardian from July I linked to).

No they aren’t. Completely different bunch. ISIS killed a lot of the original groups.

Of course they were just hanging around doing nothing making weapons from plants and sand until the opportunity arose to mercilessly kill all the heavily armed freedom fighters that our government backed. 🙄 😆

Oh good… the point of view from the red-faced, shouty tabloid reader at the bar, 5 pints in, has arrived. With all the thought and careful consideration which that generally entails

aimed at me…?

If so, just my opinion, granted probably not popular on STW. I imagine however that I’m at least as qualified as you to comment on world affairs….

We cannot just say they were baddies so it’s fine . If Cameron can kill this guy and a couple of bystanders because it was expedient to do so what and who comes next ? Can we target an orphanage because there is someone who looks a bit ISIS driving past?

No but we do help the monarchy out at times of need

You’re right. In your man-of-the-people role, you’ve clearly spent a lot of time thinking through the long term implications of the UK now endorsing the extra-judicial killing of its own citizens, without any oversight, and the implications for both parliamentary democracy, or it inflaming further the situation in Syria and the wider middle east

I do apologise. Carry on….

Oh… can you get me some crisps while you’re at the bar.

Of course they were just hanging around doing nothing making weapons from plants and sand until the opportunity arose to mercilessly kill all the heavily armed freedom fighters that our government backed.

They were in Iraq (mainly). They weren’t Syrian natives they come from all over. They have all but finished Al Quaeda (remember them?) too, so they are no shrinking violets.
🙄 😆 🙄 etc etc.

I say go for it. Now I’m hopefully past the age of conscription it’s about time we stopped pissing about and had a bloody proper war. One that lasts years and requires women to wear overalls. You know, baddies over there, us over here 3,2,1 BRITISH BULLDOGS! That’d stop these young uns robbing poundland and give ’em something to think about, eh? I’ve always fancied an anderson shelter, what say you?

No they aren’t. Completely different bunch. ISIS killed a lot of the original groups.

….and took all their weapons, that we supplied

we (the west, whatever) have been killing brown people (with beards too, probably) using drones, for what feels like decades now. The fact that one of them was British doesn’t make it worse. He is not somehow more worthy of our concern simply because he was born in Cardiff.

+1

I don’t really see how the fact they had a British passport makes it any worse or better.

Maybe Dave’s just got a thing about people from Cardiff?

…and took all their weapons, that we supplied

Yep, no argument here.

I think they got it for being Welsh and don’t forget, Wales votes Labour.

binners – Member

What if they were killed while trying to kill Donald Duck in Disneyland Paris?

BASTARDS!

They were in Iraq (mainly). They weren’t Syrian natives they come from all over. They have all but finished Al Quaeda (remember them?) too, so they are no shrinking violets.

So this completely different group of people, who have apparently come from nowhere, have defeated both Al Quaeda and the western backed freedom fighters in Syria. As well as taking on the Assad regime and the Iraq government forces (backed by the west).

Well that is amazing, and by that I mean it is amazing that anyone could actually believe that narrative..

No more Bernard Matthews turkey drummers and Mccains mashed potato smiley faces for those lads 😀

Personally I don’t have a problem with the two nasty shits who snuck across the world so they could murder, rape and steal coming to a messy end….. In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to do this, but we don’t live in an ideal world. I would be happier if there was an independent review board for these decisions though.

Insofar as the we should just walk away from the middle east and let it rot, doing nothing can have just as extreme consequences as bombing, so this isn’t just a case of do nothing and we wil be safe, do something and bombs go off in London.

So this completely different group of people, who have apparently come from nowhere, have defeated both Al Quaeda and the western backed freedom fighters in Syria. As well as taking on the Assad regime and the Iraq government forces (backed by the west).

I suggest you do some reading, you clearly don’t know what ISIS is.

Maybe Dave’s just got a thing about people from Cardiff?

Fair point, but surely it would be cheaper just to drone strike Cardiff directly?

There is no nice comfortable one-size-fits-all narrative to fit cosily into our infantilised western good guy/bad guy worldview

Nobody really knows what on earth is going on in Syria. You’ve got a brutal dictator massacring people on an industrial scale. Other than that, there are all manner of groups, from all over the place, all with different agendas, all armed up to the teeth, all taking advantage of the total absence of security in the region. The total absence of security that was Tony and George’s gift to them

I suggest you do some reading.

I suggest you do some thinking.

Factions rise and fall, warlords swap sides to suit their personal ambitions, but the majority of the people fighting are the same ones as armed by the west. That’s the way it has always been in that region, and the failure to realise and deal with it is why western policy keeps creating even bigger **** ups with newer shinier weapons.

Fair point, but surely it would be cheaper just to drone strike Cardiff directly?

Ultimately, i suspect thats where we’re heading. He’s just testing the waters. Or maybe its a diversion tactic to distract the main intended target…..

Swansea

I suggest you do some thinking.

No I suggest you do some reading. 😛

The government is playing into the hands of Isil. They want more Western military intervention in muslim countries because it helps radicalise more muslims into joining them.

We call them 2 dead terrorists, for other people they are 2 dead martyrs.

This wouldn’t have been a gung-ho operation. Imagine the media reaction if they missed up and bombed the wrong house, or caused civilian causalities (which they didn’t). Too much was a stake here.

They would have likely been monitored for months, with tapped phonelines, monitoring of internet activity to determine they were indeed part of IS, and were planning attacks against the UK. The house would have also been watched for days either by drones or SF on the ground to rule out civilian casualties prior to the strike.

I’m amazed so many people are against the strikes. Remember who we’re fighting here, the extremist sect who have brutally murdered several british civilians, hundreds of syrian/iraqi PoW’s, attempted genocide against the yazidi’s and implemented Sharia Law in their captured territory. Anyone who is confirmed to have joined that group is a fair target imo.

I wouldn’t be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they’re up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren’t much better, which is the problem with that idea.

The thing that irritates me about this is the theatricality of it. I don’t disapprove especially on legal or moral grounds, although obviously it could easily get out of hand.

The chosen justification (of course) is that they were a threat to the UK, from Syria. And I’ve no doubt there’s a solid enough legal basis for it all, which obviously we won’t see, because it’s all super-secret. And of course, it would be hopeless to expect anyone to arrest some dickbag who is hanging out in Syria (although if he was really a threat to the UK in a direct sense he’d presumably need to maybe go there, which would make it easier). And of course we’re bombing other brown people in the region anyway, which is OK if they’re Iraqis, or Syrians or whatever other flavour of bastard is floating around being all ISIS-y. And there isn’t the same legal problem with British forces killing citizens as there seems to be in the US. So none of it is all that much of a big deal, really. And indeed, British forces haven’t really had much truck with super-secret flying robot-assassination as a tactic thus far.

But despite it being a somewhat irrelevant and legally non-interesting gimmick, it was a massive Prime Ministerial news-splash.

DrJ – why do you have an issue you with hairy car mechanics? Did you get a bad car service or something?

I wouldn’t be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they’re up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren’t much better, which is the problem with that idea.

Now there’s a man who’s watched ALL the right movies.

I wouldn’t be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they’re up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren’t much better, which is the problem with that idea.

I don’t think it would be as one sided a battle as the press would like to make out, hence the reluctance to send troops in. IS fighters might at one point been an easy win, but they have a lot of battle hardened fighters now with a lot to lose, using modern equipment and understand how it works.

I wouldn’t be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they’re up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army.

I wouldn’t be against sending ground troops in this case given the atrocities they’re up to, they could be exterminated in a week with a modern army. Granted the other groups in the region aren’t much better, which is the problem with that idea.

Absolutely no chance whatsoever. These these people couldn’t be defeated in a couple of years by us, let alone a week.
The russians perhaps, they work by their own rules.

They would have likely been monitored for months, with tapped phonelines, monitoring of internet activity to determine they were indeed part of IS, and were planning attacks against the UK. The house would have also been watched for days either by drones or SF on the ground to rule out civilian casualties prior to the strike.

You’ve been watching too many episodes of Homeland.

In reality, it’s ‘There’s one, he’s got a beard!’ and bang – he’s dead.

I’m sure you’d all be keen as mustard to be in charge of this decision making process, but I’m bloody glad I’m not.

In reality, it’s ‘There’s one, he’s got a beard!’ and bang – he’s dead.

That’s almost as deluded a statement as IS could be defeated in a week. Well done.

“would people pleading for the rule of law, be arguing thus if these jihadists had been killed whilst trying to kill Aylan in kobani? “
The crucial words are “whilst trying to kill” that makes all the difference in both national and international law . To kill another where necessary to save life is self defence/defence of another and not a crime. To kill a man and others around him remotely on foreign ground absent declaration of war against that country when there is no evidence he posed a direct and immediate threat to any one in this country, that is a bigger and more complex question.
I don’t pretend to offer an answer to the question but I am very uneasy about the politicians “trust me he was a baddy and the bystanders were asking for it too” response.

“The russians perhaps, they work by their own rules.”
Which did not work in Afghanistan and cost them their empire, and have not been a big success in Chechnya which cost them their domestic security .

You’ve been watching too many episodes of Homeland.

In reality, it’s ‘There’s one, he’s got a beard!’ and bang – he’s dead.

Hardly, way too much was at stake if they got this wrong. The media would be having a field day if they bombed the wrong house. And all the people killed were confirmed militants who have featured in propaganda videos, so there’s no arguing they were’t members of IS.

Hardly, way too much was at stake if they got this wrong. The media would be having a field day if they bombed the wrong house.

Phew… its a good job thats never happened before then, eh? And if it had, we’d know about it… how?

And all the people killed were confirmed militants who have featured in propaganda videos, so there’s no arguing they were’t members of IS.

Well… that’s what they’re telling us, anyway. Not giving any evidence. Just telling us, and asking us to take their word for it.

Fair enough. I’m happy with that. Who’s next then?

one of them was wearing a Cardiff city shirt what more proof do you need!