Not really wanting to get into the specifics of the IRA, as that’s a murky conversation that will derail this thread.

Agreed! Let’s not!

My point was that if there was a true guerilla war we were facing we’d see far more successful attacks. I can’t think of any guerilla war where the success ratio is so high(particularly in a country as open and as easy to attack as our own). So, imo, ulimatley what were read and hear about is largely political posturing and not alot more. (I’m talking with regards to interal attacks, not terrorism in the likes of Iraq and Syria).

From what I’m led to believe from someone who works at the sharp end of anti-terrorism at home and abroad, you might be surprised. I certainly was.

Well from Guardian ‘Father of British Isis fighters fears they are on government hitlist’ 😯

TBF they are also probably considered legitimate targets by Syria (government forces), Russia, Iran, US, Jordanian, Australian, French and possibly even Israel, if fighting for ISIS.

OP,

Good.

dragon – Member

Well from Guardian ‘Father of British Isis fighters fears they are on government hitlist’

Good. oh ya they can claim asylum here …

Or, it may radicalise others, and provide ISIS with some convenient british martyrs for their recruiting. Especially when it’s hung on a shoogly peg- “The british government kills our brothers without even a trial, they say they’re democratic and just but politicians and soldiers kill us without their people and judges having a say!” PR gold.

But this is the narrative anyway and precisely why wahabi / salafist beliefs have been propagating unchecked.

When you do a bit of digging the way that so many people have been convinced their “brothers” are oppressed is because they spend so much time listening to fundamentalists.

In many cases those who believe their community is somehow under attack have chosen or been encouraged to isolate themselves from the wider community, and in the case of women have been forced into isolation by virtue of the requirements to cover themselves and thus avoid face to face contact.

These communities often get most / all of their view of the world from local imams and “religious scholars” who were born outside of the UK and therefore have almost no understanding of how the UK works. These communities also typically get no news or information from uk based impartial sources – as evidenced by the many subscriptions to arabic TV channels and OFCOMs repeated attempts to stop access to channels that openly advocate violence against non believers / jewish / gay people etc. etc.

The whole belief system that underpins this movement is predicated on a “victim” mindset – the lack of participation with wider society enables it and in some cases it’s ably abetted by well-meaning organisations (like universities) who happily give islamists credibility and a platform on which to spread their warped view of the world.

From what I’m led to believe from someone who works at the sharp end of anti-terrorism at home and abroad, you might be surprised. I certainly was.

You have a secret informer, how convenient 😆 Lets hope he is better read on the subject than you are.

wrecker – Member
From what I’m led to believe from someone who works at the sharp end of anti-terrorism at home and abroad, you might be surprised. I certainly was.

I’m always busy at work too! 😆

You have a secret informer, how convenient Lets hope he is better read on the subject than you are.

He’s certainly better than you! 😆
Mind you, so is my dog.

just5minutes – Member

When you do a bit of digging the way that so many people have been convinced their “brothers” are oppressed is because they spend so much time listening to fundamentalists.

And now we’ve 1) given them more ammunition and 2) undermined our counterargument further. A story based on a seed of truth’s always stronger and when they’re able to hold up a copy of the Sun going “gotcha”, you can’t tell me that doesn’t help their cause.

He’s certainly better than you!
Mind you, so is my dog.

Has your dog seen Rambo 3? That would certainly make him more informed than you about Russian involvement in the area.

But at least we now know where you get all your information from, your dog and a secret connected friend.

I’d say Iraq and Libya are the main reasons we didn’t intervene in Syria, IS is different though, it’s nothing to do with fighting a sovereign nation.

Nothing like IS has existed before in the modern world, it’s not just a loose terrorist group. However I think the desire to form a Caliphate and have a base will probably turn out be their main weakness – that plays into conventional warfare tactics

But at least we now know where you get all your information from, your dog and a secret connected friend.

It could be worse, it could be from the beano!

However I think the desire to form a Caliphate and have a base will probably turn out be their main weakness – that plays into conventional warfare tactics

Once they take Cardiff we can have a clean war and just bomb the hell out of the welsh.

There was an article linked to by someone on here the author tried to understand ISIS in their own context he argued they are a deliberate planned Death cult. Their horrific actions beheadings, burning alive, drowning throwing off tall buildings deliberately reference incidents in the historical account of the Koran. If so then they actually want to engage in a boots on the ground conventional war and the difficult bit is they expect and want to lose in a massive bloody and costly way as a necessary prerequisite for a resurgence of a “pure” Islam . The argument is that all their actions are provocations to bring about this Armageddon Prophesy .
If true not sure where that leaves our military might. Personally I would explore containing isolating and starving them of funding then let their state collapse economically and socially. To do that in an ethical way would necessitate us accepting and accommodating those who fled the region though.

crankboy – Member
Their horrific actions

This bugs the hell out of me tbh, don’t get me wrong, I’m against everything ISIS stand for, but the idea that they are somehow more barbaric than any other war is ridicilous. Soon as someone is declared an enemy combatant in any war all sorts of nasty shit happens from all sides in every war.

It’s pretty much the reason why i’m against every war and have been for a long time! War is the domain of ****.

Hard to think of another group who burn people alive or drown them in cages as a propaganda exercise. Last mass beheadings were the Japanese in China . War is very horrible and lots of truly appalling shit happens but this institutionalised torture porn propaganda is out of the ordinary I can think of some other examples e.g. isolated incidents in Serbia and Vietnam but to suggest it is a norm of war is wrong.

crankboy – Member
There was an article linked to by someone on here the author tried to understand ISIS in their own context he argued they are a deliberate planned Death cult. Their horrific actions beheadings, burning alive, drowning throwing off tall buildings deliberately reference incidents in the historical account of the Koran. If so then they actually want to engage in a boots on the ground conventional war and the difficult bit is they expect and want to lose in a massive bloody and costly way as a necessary prerequisite for a resurgence of a “pure” Islam . The argument is that all their actions are provocations to bring about this Armageddon Prophesy .

Yeap. Spot on. They want glorious death in order to drag more into the “holy” war.

If true not sure where that leaves our military might. Personally I would explore containing isolating and starving them of funding then let their state collapse economically and socially. To do that in an ethical way would necessitate us accepting and accommodating those who fled the region though.

Well, if you have the will there is a way. The problem is lacking political will …

Isolating and starving are the very tactic that should be deployed long ago. It was very successful in the far east when fighting the communist insurgents. Move the population to a region then erect some sort of buffer zone between the fanatic on one side and normal population on the other … Nobody gets in or out.

The communists were starving and eating grass (just saying like) to survive …

Ya, starve them and let’s see if they good farmers and able to feed themselves in their own paradise.

crankboy – Member
Last mass beheadings were the Japanese in China

What they are doing now is child play compare to what the Japanese did to Chinese in WWII.

IS seems to revel in its brutality, but the jihadists dont have to look far inspiration or to come up with propoganda to recruit more and justify their actions….

the images of naked POWs piled on top of each other, on dog leads, smeared in shit for a joke at Abhu Graib, go on google images it

or the death of Baha Mousa….

A final 1,400-page report said a “large number” of soldiers assaulted Mousa and that many others, including officers, must have known about the abuse. The report called his death an “appalling episode of serious gratuitous violence”.[2] The inquiry condemned the Ministry of Defence for “corporate failure” and the regiment for a “lack of moral courage to report abuse

The inquiry heard that Mousa was hooded for almost 24 hours during his 36 hours of custody by the 1st Battalion of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment and that he suffered at least 93 injuries prior to his death. The report later details that Mousa was subject to several practices banned under both domestic law and the Geneva Conventions. Seven British soldiers were charged in connection with the case. Six were found not guilty

who is the most barbaric?

Did they not want to die for their cause? Mission accomplished then.

kimbers – Member
IS seems to revel in its brutality, the jihadists dont have to look far to come up with propoganda to recruit more and justify their actions….

At some point in the future they will have to behead their own jihadists if they are isolated. You know not enough heads to be chopped for propaganda etc …

kimbers – Member
who is the most barbaric?

If you shoot them dead on the spot is that barbaric? It is much more barbaric to jail or to chain them up. Shoot them on the spot and let them go in peace to meet their maker. They can then debate with their maker all they want and with all the time in the universe …

At some point in the future they will have to behead their own jihadists.

Watch The Power of Nightmares by Adam Curtis. It explains that whenever the jihadists get a hold somewhere, they’re so factional, (think Peoples Front of Judea/Judeans Peoples Front) it inevitably ends up dissolving into a bloody game of ‘I’m more Islamic than You’ with similar effects to the crack Welsh Suicide Squad, who may well have been from Cardiff

binners – Member
… (think Peoples Front of Judea/Judeans Peoples Front)

😆 Yep.

who is the most barbaric?

Really? Really really? What the QLR’s did was reprehensible but there’s not even a comparison here.
Reports of ISIS using babies for demolitions training, routinely crucifying, drowning, burning and shooting people for little or no reason, killing children for not fasting during ramadan and committing what is tantamount to genocide. This isn’t even media hysteria/propoganda, ISIS release videos of it.
I don’t think most of us can compute the scale and cruelty of the things they do, I can’t. It’s unimaginable.

This isn’t some rationale to send troops in, I’m against military action. It’s just a reminder of how savage these “people” are, and why everyone is running like buggery to get away from them.

who is the most barbaric?

are you for real Kimbers.

burning the pilot alive in a cage?
beheadings
throwing people off buildings
strapping people in to a car before shooting it with an RPG
drowning in cages
mass beheadings,
child executioners
people digging their own graves
explosives detonated around mens necks

i suggest you get a grip, and find out what is happening in reality.

lets not forget the murder of Khalid al-assad
beheaded and tied to the pillars of a palmyra column his head placed at his feet.

some people need a dose of reality

wrecker – Member
Reports of ISIS using babies for demolitions training, routinely crucifying, drowning, burning and shooting people for little or no reason, killing children for not fasting during ramadan and committing what is tantamount to genocide.

They are doing just that – genocide, but they are also very good at turning the argument on the West etc by accusing the west of indirect genocide …

This isn’t some rationale to send troops in, I’m against military action. It’s just a reminder of how savage these “people” are, and why everyone is running like buggery to get away from them.

At some point the peace will have to come from the barrel of the gun.
If they bleed then they can die. You have no choice. Short term pain or long term misery … you need to fight them or be slaughtered. Sitting and running away is not a solution.

my point is that the killing of baha mousa (was not an isolated incident according to our own report)

and the torture of prisoners at abu graib etc, (also doccumented by the troops that carried it out)

a million dead Iraqi civillians, daily drone strikes for the last 10 + years, these IS Jihadists grew up in this
we helped create their mentality

What the QLR’s did was reprehensible

really reprehensible? thats the best you can up with, it was murder for fun of a tubby hotel clerk by a regiment of our highly trained heroic soldiers, as far as I can tell, IS are surely guilty of far worse crimes and I would love to see them punished for them but
I dont believe that invading and bombing the shit out of the region again will do anything other than create more monsters

where do you get the million dead from?

and the uk forces were not committing barbaric acts as the norm as you suggest.

Iraq body count varies wildly, 1millions defintely the upper estimate!
all reports put the majority of dead as civillians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties

add up Afgahnistan and Pakistan etc however

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/08/german-intelligence-confirms-isis-used-mustard-gas-in-iraq-says-news-report

Sigh.

really reprehensible? thats the best you can up with, it was murder for fun as far as I can tell, IS are surely guilty of far worse crimes

Murder isn’t reprehensible?

reprehensible
?r?pr??h?ns?b(?)l/
adjective
adjective: reprehensible

deserving censure or condemnation.
“his complacency and reprehensible laxity”
synonyms: deplorable, disgraceful, discreditable, disreputable, despicable, blameworthy, culpable, wrong, bad, shameful, dishonourable, ignoble, erring, errant, objectionable, odious, opprobrious, repugnant, inexcusable, unpardonable, unforgivable, insufferable, indefensible, unjustifiable, regrettable, unacceptable, unworthy, remiss; More

and I would love to see them punished for them but
I dont believe that invading and bombing the shit out of the region again will do anything other than create more monsters

I can’t disagree. But I also haven’t yet heard a remotely viable proposal from anyone about what to do about it.

I was looking at that wikipedia and the fugre varies massively

one is too many, but hard to get accurate numbers.

Two more cretins from IS are not something I will lose sleep over

I can’t disagree. But I also haven’t yet heard a remotely viable proposal from anyone about what to do about it.

Absolutely, I wish I did have a solution

but based on the last decade of western intervention in the middle east bombing IS to protect the people they are brutalising will only end up killing more civilians than IS soldiers

I’m usually pretty live and let live..

I understand that our persecution and attempted westernisation over centuries and backed up with extreme military action has led to the current situation.. That probably it wouldn’t be very unlikely if ISIS believed that the west had waged holy war on them

But unless we are prepared to martyr ourselves to their cause out of a sense of guilt (I’m not prepared to do that) then they have to be stopped..
That is the present reality

And all’s fair in love and jihad

Telegraph Poll. 96% support action as self defence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11849429/Con-Coughlin-Good-riddance-to-British-terrorists.html

It’s all well and good when we’re deploying drones to take out terrorists. What will be interesting is when Putin uses them to takes out someone in Latvia, China in Tibet, North Korea,….

We won’t have much of a moral high ground will we!

After that he’ll be poisoning dissidents in London with Polonium 210.

Cameron’s ‘authorisation’ has little to no bearing on said drone strikes ..

crankboy – Member
Hard to think of another group who burn people alive or drown them in cages as a propaganda exercise. Last mass beheadings were the Japanese in China . War is very horrible and lots of truly appalling shit happens but this institutionalised torture porn propaganda is out of the ordinary I can think of some other examples e.g. isolated incidents in Serbia and Vietnam but to suggest it is a norm of war is wrong.

My point is that innocent lives are taken in war by all sides with great disregard, I struggle to see isis beheading someone and bombs being drop form 30,000ft as something vastly different.

Murder is murder to me.

And that’s before we get into ISIS being a direct result of UK/US foriegn policy. So the blame for them comes right back to our door step. So it’s all nice to be morally outraged, but lets remember why they are doing what they do.

you really cannot see that you can wage war and wage war in a much worse way? 😯

The term war crime must be really confusing for you
thanks aracer and toys it works great

Junkyard – lazarus
you really cannot see that you can wage war and wage war in a much worse way?

The term war crime must be really confusing for youI see an awful lot of war crimes.

It’s not confusing to me in the slightest.

Slight hijack.

😆 => Channel 4 Jon Snow (just now about female refugee brutality in neighboring countries) = talking about the brutality of war to a female Egyptian journalist, the Egyptian journalist was very surprised when Jon snow made a big deal about all the brutality. The female journalist responded by saying nothing new about ISIS chopping off hands/heads etc coz in S. Arabia everyday is ISIS … That shut Jon Snow up … 😆